| Author |
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Buellistic
| | Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 11:00 pm: | 
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Ara:
Rocketman in England has used Dexron III in his transmission with no problems ...
The auto trans. fluid is like water, "BUT" it lubicates ... Benifits are less drag for anything spinning in it !!!
Ford uses auto trans. fluid in its RANGER STD transmissions ...
In my 97 S3T "i" will continue to run Syn3 20W-50 and would recomend this to you also ... "i"
favor running the same oil in the transmission as the engine because of the flywheel sprocket shaft oil seal that always goes bad(do not want
auto trans. fluid in my engine oil on my S3T) ...
"BUT" when and if "i" get a BLAST, the trans. will be filled with Mercon V ... This is the econo way of getting a little more out of the
engine/transmission ... The BLAST will just be a "PLAY TOY" and a back up for my S3T ... |
Sloppy
| | Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 12:48 am: |
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For what it's worth, I had the HD Sportrans fluid checked by an oil lab and they reported that it is actually a hydraulic oil with some EP additives. It is, in fact, not a "motor" or "gear" oil. So, Sportrans is actually a special application oil for Sportster Tranmissions!
So, considering that ATF is really hydraulic fluid, it may actually work okay in this transmission. I would, however, be concerned that ATF may not have enough EP additives to handle the compressive forces brought onto by the gears. Though automatics have shear and compressive pressures, they are likely designed with larger areas and thus work with lower forces acting against the fluid than in a motorcycle transmission (note, this is just a casual observation).
You have to remember that every gear assembly is designed to work with a companion lubricant. If you use a large contact area gear assembly, the lubrication requirements drops when compared to a compact gear assembly. Modern day manual transmissions use ATF due to its low viscosity and thus improved gas mileage - but those transmissions are deliberately designed to use ATF.
Bottom line - the farther away you stray from the mfg. recommendations, the greater the risk you take. And is that risk worth the reward? In my opinion, no.
(Message edited by Sloppy on February 12, 2006) |
Blazinc5
| | Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 02:21 am: |
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I would say that ATF would be a bad choice. Ever see what ATF does to paint? Dunno what that special coating is that would go onto the stator, but I wouldn't wanna trust it to stay there.. Plus ATF to my knowlege is thinner,, less cushion for them gears running against eachother. Sorry to chime in so late in this thread... only had my XB12R for a lil over a month and lookin at the oil info.  |
Ara
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 01:10 pm: |
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If memory serves, ATF is 5W. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 01:26 pm: |
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And I'm happy to take the risk of running ATF in my S1W trans, and have been for several thousand trouble free miles.
I think there's a great lesson to be learned from these sort of threads. If the info we read is contradictory (not sure exactly what to but you know what I mean) then all we can do collectively is go with what we as individuals believe is best for us.
The day my tranny fails through using ATF, the BadWeB will be the first place I'll shout it out. I don't believe there is any good reason to say things like 'the further away from manufacturer recommendation you stray - the greater the risk'. There are alternatives, and my investigations show that ATF, for example, does work in HD type transmissions. For how long is what I will find out for myself, but finding out doesn't always come from reading a manufacturers spec sheet or likewise that of a chemist in things oily. What goes on paper isn't necessarily the be all and end all. So do I consider ATF a risk in my transmission. If I did I wouldn't be trying it.
So the lesson to be learned. Don't believe everything is black and white.
Rocket |
Buellistic
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 01:37 pm: |
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Rocketman:
"FORD" uses Automatic Transmission Fluid in their STANDARD TRANSMISSIONS ...
IMHO "i" see no reason where it would harm the SPORTSTER/BLAST/XB clutch as BUELLET PROOF as they are ... "i" do recomend the "PRODUCT IMPROVEMENT" that is on several posts on BWB for Tube Frame clutchs !!!
In BUELLing
LaFayette |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 04:03 pm: |
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Is there not more than one type of ATF, two major types I believe that are significantly different? Which are you using Sean?
I sure do like the idea of the 10K mile extended drain interval that the Formula+ offers. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 05:16 am: |
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Blake - Comma Dexron III
Rocket |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 11:02 am: |
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Blake - correction.
Comma AQF 3, which is a dexron III type fluid.
Rocket |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 11:41 am: |
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The "Dexron III" told me what I was wanting to know.
What led you to use it in your Buell? |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 04:26 pm: |
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Well Blake, I first came across the use of ATF in HD transmissions when researching Bandit Machine Works clutches. This is what I found on their web page.....
NOTE: We recommend the use of ONLY automatic transmission fluid or Golden Spectro Gear SAE 80 Primary Chaincase Lubricant in our clutches. DO NOT use the HD oil or similar oils in the primary, especially with Kevlar plates. Using the HD oil will make the clutch drag and slip. ATF is inexpensive and works great, but can be difficult to prevent leakage in some bikes where the engine to primary case seal is not perfect. Golden Spectro 80 contains friction modifiers which actually increase the friction between the plates and allows the clutch to carry more power with the same spring pressure but is slightly higher viscosity than the ATF and can aggravate clutch drag in a bike with limited release travel. DO NOT use a full synthetic oil, these are often too “slippery” and will make the clutch slip.
DO NOT use the HD oil or similar oils in the primary, especially with Kevlar plates. Using the HD oil will make the clutch drag and slip. ATF is inexpensive and works great, was especially alarming to me, so I did some looking and asking around.
I know a good friend of mine who runs a Harley specialist business has been using ATF in Harley transmissions for years. He recommends it to his customers too, and many go with the recommendation. To date, he has never had a transmission failure caused by ATF use.
There was a year or three ago, an American HD style magazine, possibly American Iron, that carried out a series of tests on transmission fluids, and they concluded ATF to be a capable transmission lubricant for HD's.
There are many known usages of ATF fluids within HD type drag race teams too. Yes I know they don't travel far LOL
So, back to Comma and Dexron III. Dexron III is the most common ATF used in the service fill industry in the US and Europe as far as I'm aware. It is a higher grade lubricant than 'ordinary' ATF's, offering better cold and hot performance and wear characteristics also. There are no special needs in HD transmissions for Highly Friction Modified (HDF's) lubricants as far as I'm aware, and bare in mind what Bandit Works say about clutch drag. Bandit Works also say not to use a fully synthetic lubricant as they are too slippery and can make the clutch slip. So for me Dexron III seems an ideal choice. It's a bonus too that my primary parts supplier stocks and delivers Comma products.
As for Comma Oil, they are a subsidiary (oil manufacturing) company of Exxon Mobil. That would imply to me that their products stand well within the industry. Or have I fallen for the bull shite, not being an oil person or chemist myself? Your thoughts?
Rocket |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 05:40 pm: |
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I don't buy the too slippery full synthetic BS, on account of that is what it is, BS.
Synthetic oil of the same viscosity is no more slippery than any oil of the same viscosity. That darn myth will likely continue on forever, until the demise of conventionally based oils I suppose.
I'm not familiar with Exxon-Mobil Comma product.
I know you can get full synthetic Dexron-III though. There's a dilemma for you. 
I just have trouble trusting that a lubricant designed to work in a non-gear driven system like an automatic transmission, which is a complex hydraulic mechanism, would be most suitable for lubricating gears that experience significant contact stress, not to mention the aggressive engagement of the dogs. Viscosity is definitely what matters most, but the anti-wear additives would seem to be important too.
I just don't know anything about ATF to be able to form any kind of opinion on its use in a Buell tranny.
I'd be wary of the recommendations of those looking out more for the clutch than the tranny. The clutch I can replace in short order. The tranny is a bit more involved and a bit more expensive too. I dunno. How many miles do you have running the Dexron-III in your S1W? |
Buellistic
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 06:11 pm: |
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Blake:
When "i" get a BLAST P3, one of the first things "i" will do to it will be to put Dexron-V in the transmission ... The reason of doing this is the BLAST needs every edge it can get ... |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 06:18 pm: |
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I know what you mean about slippery vs slippery, but the crucial thing for me was how many sets of kevlar plates I've toasted whilst using synthetic transmission fluids. I know now that I'm running stock plates with the extra plates and a stronger spring plate from Barnett, that the synthetic thing is no longer an issue, or it shouldn't be, but I'm wary about the clutch slip thing.
Ok, more slippery might be a myth, but it could also be a way of wording to the layman when it actually means there is something with synthetic transmission fluids that doesn't work well with wet clutch plates. Remember, Yamaha have recommended not to use Mobil 1 in the R1 as owners were complaining of clutch slip. That's a fact. I don't believe Yamaha R1's use kevlar plates.
In the end the delema is whether synthetic will work or not where Buell clutches of any material are concerned. I've found an alternative to explore and it's based on seemingly strong reputation. Bare in mind that Bandit Works don't have a vested interest in lubricants, and they are saying don't use synthetic and it's ok to use ATF, and the products they make run alongside transmission units, sharing the same lubricant. Now here's a thing.Manual transmissions have similar components inside them that automatic transmission units do. Gear, cogs, bushes, shafts etc. The commonest form of auto transmission failures is? NEARLY ALWAYS CAUSED BY LUBRICANT AND FILTERS NOT CHANGED OFTEN ENOUGH, IF EVER. The revelation here is most auto transmissions that do fail, fail after many thousands of miles, which in a round about kind of way is testament to the strength and quality of ATF's given the extreme life that some owners put their auto transmissions through.
Food for thought.
Rocket |
Buellistic
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 09:25 pm: |
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Rocket:
If you want a automatic transmission to
take the beating, keep on shifting and not
sliping, put a filter in the return line
to the transmission ...
As for the SPORTSTER "CLUTCH", PRODUCT IMPROVED it is TOUGH !!!
In BUELLing
LaFayette |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 06:26 am: |
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put a filter in the return line
to the transmission ...
You mean in the trap door somehow?
Rocket |
Buellistic
| | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 06:45 am: |
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Rocket:
Automatic transmission as in "CAR, trucks(lorry's), vans, and SUv's ...
In BUELLing
LaFayette |
Sarodude
| | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 12:24 pm: |
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BTW, there are some American manual trannys that spec ATF for their lube. I had an 88 Chevy Astro with the 6 and a very odd version of the classic T5 tranny. Chevy only made these 5 speed astros from 87 to 89.
Anyway, they spec'd ATF - and I know lotsa other American cars with manuals that spec'd ATF.
-Saro |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 07:03 pm: |
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For a minute there LaFayette, you had me scratching my head. I thought you were meaning my Buell tranny.
Rocket |
Ryker77
| | Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 07:58 am: |
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This is what most people have found to work great in modern day VW manual trans: over redline and other gear oils.
http://www.pennzoil.com/products/gear_oil/syncro_fluid.html
http://www.pzlqs.com/Tech/Pdsheet/DomesticMarketing/Gear&Transmission/pdf/Synchr omeshFluid.PDF
Viscosity ASTM D-445
@ 40°C, cSt 41.6
@ 100°C, cSt 9.08
Compared to PENNZOIL® DEXRON®-III H MERCON® AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION FLUID
Viscosity
@ 40°C, cSt 34.35
@ 100°C, cSt 7.23
PENNZOIL® SYNCHROMESH FLUID is a synchromesh transmission fluid designed for certain manual transaxles and
manual transmissions used by General Motors or Chrysler. PENNZOIL® SYNCHROMESH FLUID is formulated with
high quality paraffinic base stocks, a fluidity modifier, multifunctional performance additives, corrosion inhibitors, a foam
suppressor and a shear stable viscosity index improver additive. It provides excellent oxidation stability, low temperature
performance, excellent synchronizer performance and compatibility with yellow metals, such as bronze, brass and copper
components found in manual transaxles and transmissions. This product will satisfactorily lubricate General Motors or
Chrysler manual transaxles and transmissions from -40°C to +150°C. |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Friday, November 10, 2006 - 03:08 pm: |
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I seem to remember a photo of a Buell race team putting auto trans fluid in their race bike. The picture is on this board somewhere, or it was. |
Berkshire
| | Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 07:30 pm: |
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ATF is spec'd for the T5 in my V8 Mustang. I have never heard of this being for fuel economy, but that fits in with OEM's recommending thinner motor oil now than they used to.
I would have tried synchromesh in the Mustang T5, but ATF is required (according to "everybody", circa 5 years ago) because regular manual trans oil is too thick to get in to some tight clearance bearings or something. |
Geargrinderbuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 03:37 pm: |
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BTW, T-5 trannies , about 1985, were mostly changed over to NW or new world specs(Different bearings); that means that they use ATF, not 85 wt. gear oil.Sorry for the car comment... |
Pragmatic
| | Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 07:58 pm: |
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On cars I run the Pennzoil Synchromesh Fluid in both the T5 in my 90 Mustang and the Getrag in my 00 Lincoln. Both recommend AFT.
The T5 shifts better with the Pennzoil, the Lincoln shifts the same as when ATF was in there. |
Raceautobody
| | Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 09:37 pm: |
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Dextron/mercon atf is definatly designed for wet clutches. That is what is in an automatic trans. The same style clutch packs as in our buells. Fiber and steel plates. Also the gears it shifts are actual gears. Planitary style and sun gears with fiber lined bands holding and releasing the outer drums. Also transfer cases in four wheel drive trucks use dextron. Most are chain driven just like our primary in our buells.
Al |
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