| Author | Message | ||
     Skully |
I need your help solving a problem with my bike. I have a 2003 XB9S (19,000 miles) with a K&N filter, perforated air box, race ECM, and a D&D muffler. The bike ran good but felt lean up to approximately 4,000 RPM. Recently, I purchased a PCII with the optional four wire O2 sensor to try remapping the air/fuel curve. I like to take things one step at a time so I installed the PCII and kept the stock O2 sensor. The bike ran better so I experimented with various Buell maps (including the zero map) with differing degrees of success. However, one serious problem surfaced: I turn the ignition on, the check engine light comes on and fuel pump spools up, the light goes out… everything seems normal. However, if the bike is ridden long enough to get warm/hot, when I try to restart it (i.e. fill up at a gas station), it runs very poorly seemingly on only one cylinder (will not idle) and the “check engine light” will illuminate. However, if I wait approximately an hour, it starts and runs fine until things got hot again. Everyone that I spoke to about it seemed to think I needed to install the four wire O2 sensor. Well, it has been installed and the bike runs even better until it gets hot and I shut the engine off and want to restart it. We decided the PCII module itself must be getting too hot. So I mounted it in my tail bag and went for a ride to meet some friends. When I arrived at the predetermined parking lot, they had not. I did not want to shut the engine off for fear of not being able to restart. I let the engine idle for a few minutes, the check engine light came on, and the engine began to run poorly. I immediately got rolling and within a quarter of a mile, as I picked up speed, the engine smoothed out and the check engine light went out. At this point it is seemingly evident that the problem is heat related and it is not the PCII. I reinforced this by placing a bag of ice water on the PCII with no effect. While explaining all of this to a friend at work, it dawned on me that for some reason, the bike may be going into the skip spark mode. It never did this before installing the PCII. And I will say again, it runs better than it ever has. If the various maps were causing the engine to run lean/hot, the zero map should not have caused this, right? Any idea as to what is happening? Thanks for your help! Keith | ||
| Martin |
This might sound a bit obvious, but you did glick the sensor change box over to 1 from 0 didn't you? and you are using the maps for the 4-wire sensor? | ||
| M1combat |
http://www.powercommander.com/man_chp4_pg17.shtml Do you have anything in "the box"? If not... I think maybe the box needs to be expanded on the XB models. I think that the XB's have a "wider" closed loop mode. | ||
| Hogs |
Hey Skully, Sorry Bud I can`t help ya at all, But I`m about to install the power commander and also have the 4-wire so I hope alot respond here and throw all what they know out here for all :-))) I have heard in the past without the 4-wire it wd. throw a check eng. light on, but not any ill effects as you are saying...Hmmm Could a temp sensor go good and bad and cause the signal to be screwed up to the ecm, or do they just go bad and thats it all of a sudden?? | ||
| Johnk3 |
get rid of the race ecm, you don't need it if you run the pc3 | ||
| Blake |
Might not need the race ECM, but it gets rid of the lingering throttle-on condition that the stock ECM exhibits upon closing the throttle during deceleration. | ||
| Craigster |
Did the problem surface immediatelty after PCIII install? If No; what map were you running at the time of install? | ||
| Skully |
Martin- Good question; I just checked- I'm using the Feracci map and the 1 (of 0,1,2) for the O2 sensor *is* selected. M1- Another good point. The Feracci map has several of the cells in "the box" that have positive values. John- As far as I know, I don't have the PCIII, I have the PCII. And Blake is right, I don't want the stock ECM due to the "anti-engine braking" when you let off the throttle. Besides, the same problem exists when I enter a zero map. And to boot, the engine runs great (until I stop for gas)! Keep those ideas coming! Thanks, Keith | ||
| Skully |
Craigster- The problem started immediately upon installation of the PCII and has continued irregardless of the map (including the zero map) that is installed or which O2 sensor I use. Keith (Message edited by blake on June 28, 2005) (Message edited by skully on June 28, 2005) | ||
| M1combat |
What's the code? | ||
| Blake |
Keith, I saw a post recently explaining that the rebadged K&N PCII for a Buell is indeed equivalent to a DynoJet PCIII. The explanation said something about the DynoJet PCIII needing the 4-wire O2 sensor where the PCII does not. Might have something to do with your difficulties if you are following online instructions for a PCII but in reality have a PCIII. | ||
| Ingemar |
I'm sure you thought of this, but is the engine indeed running too hot? Ie, does the engine light come on because of the temperature so it starts spark skipping? How does the fan run? I think what I would try is ride it so that when you shut it off the light comes on. Then check the diagnostic code, either manually by shorting pins 1&2 and count the engine light flashes or with the VDSTS (if you have access to it). Then you know for certain why the engine light comes on. With the VDSTS you can also run checks on all the sensors and injectors. Have you considered the possibility that you just might have an independent problem with the temp sensor? I don't mean to make things overly complicated (and I know its not what you should look for after changing something) but it can't be that much work to disconnect the PC and ride around to rule that out. Hope that helps! Ingemar. | ||
| Skully |
M1- to what code are you referring? Blake- Okay, I have installed the four wire sensor. The bike runs better but still has the problem listed above. I'm not aware of any differences in instructions... Ingemar- I'm not about to make the statement that it is not running hot now. However, for the most part, the fan comes on and cycles just as it has. Again, I ran the zero map as a baseline and the problem continued. The zero map literally is nothing but zeros meaning the PCII is *supposed* to have no effect whatsoever on the fuel map. And, when the zero map is installed, the bike runs just like it did before I installed the PCII. I do have the VDSTS software. That sounds like a good idea but I don't recall how it checks the engine temp sensor. Thanks guys, Keith | ||
| Blake |
Keith, Understand you have the four wire sensor. Am saying that the module that you have is actually equivalent to a DynoJet PC-III, not a PC-II. K&N apparently mislabeled their modules as PC-II's when they were in fact PC-III's. Just trying to be perfectly accurate and avoid as much confusion as possible. Who's on first? I think someone also suggested that the zero box, a contiguous region of the map in which DynoJet mandates that no adjustments be made, may be different (read more extensive/larger) for an XB9 than it was for the old tube frame DDFI bikes, which are what the PC-III was originally designed for. Seems likely that the Feracci map would be okay in that respect, but who knows. As to the code... your check engine light will flash a code indicating where the ECM detects an irregularity. Pretty cool diagnostic aid. Your service manual tells all about it.  | ||
| Ingemar |
I do have the VDSTS software. That sounds like a good idea but I don't recall how it checks the engine temp sensor. On second thought it might not ... not sure anymore. But getting the diag code from the ecm still sounds like a good idea to me to figure out what it (the ecm) finds wrong with the bike. Like Blake said, its in the manual ...  | ||
| Craigster |
Dynojet and K&N BOTH put PCIIIs in boxes labeled PCII and put stickers on some units that said PCII. these units were early PCIIIs and a production line screw up lead to the mislabeling. Easy way to tell what you have: 1. There are no PCIIs for Buells 2. PCIIs adjust INPUTS to the ECM. There are tables for air temp sensor offset, manifold pressure offset, TPS offset, etc. If you open the software and see a single table showing RPM vs. TPS and no other tables, you have a PCIII. You can have a PCIIIr which also has an ignition timing table. It is also plotted in RPM vs. TPS That it. My question becomes: Is it the PCIII or the bike? Pull the PCIII and see if it goes away. If it does, the problem is mostlikely in the PCIII or the PCIII to Buell harness connections. If you have a poor connection it will get hot if it is dealing with any current. With heat the gaps will grow and the failure will make it self present. I have seen some issues with PCs doing goofy things, but most of the time it is poor connections. Ryker found that out as soon as he went looking at his harness. he found a bad TPS connection. That's my first set of thoughts. Please let us know what else you find. | ||
| Skully |
Blake- I hear what you are saying regarding the values in "the box", but I get the same results when the zero map is used. Blake/Ingemar-I don't recall the check engine light flashing indicating a code, but maybe I was not looking for it either. Craigster- When I open the software on my laptop, I only see RPM vs throttle position. Therefore it must be the PCIII. M1 has been saying this all along. Knowing that, is there anything different in the set up? Thanks for the ideas! Keith | ||
| Ingemar |
Keith, When the ecm gets an error code, the check engine light goes on. It doesn't flash. You can manually check the error code and then it will flash the engine light. Ya gotta count quick though!  The procedure is in the service manual on page 4-8. If you don't have one I (or someone else I'm sure) can type it up for you. | ||
| Blake |
"when the zero map is installed, the bike runs just like it did before I installed the PCII." Which I assume means it runs okay, yes? "I hear what you are saying regarding the values in "the box", but I get the same results when the zero map is used. " Meaning that the bike will not start within a few minutes after shutdown? Blake confuse. Please splain. | ||
| Blake |
Never mind, I think I get it. When the bike runs well with the zero map, it runs just like it did without the PCIII installed. But after running well, even with the zero map, the bike suffers the same problem of not wanting to run soon after shut-down, even with the zero map. What prize do I win? ![: ]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) | ||
| Blake |
Have you checked the kickstand safety switch?  Cause if the bike starts to run poorly or even quit running when it gets hot everyone knows to check the kickstand safety switch. What fool would not check the kickstand safety switch?  | ||
| Buelltroll |
What is this "ZERO" map you speak of? Would it be worth actually installing my PCIII just to run the zero map until i can get it tuned? Any ill effects from running a zero map and hipo O2 sensor? (Message edited by buelltroll on June 28, 2005) | ||
| Craigster |
A zero map has zeros in all the cells for the fueling adjustments. In theory no fueling changes will be made to the stock EFI's commands (Pulse Width) to the injectors. This is not a hard and fast rule however, as I have been able to show repeatable AFR and power differences with some Power Commanders running zero maps. Pluggy in, she change. Unplug, back to stock values. Pluggy back in, she change-same way as before!!!! For most bikes however, this is NOT the case and installing a PC with zeros in all bins is, for all intents and purposes, the same as stock. Thus no worse than running with out a PC installed. | ||
| Ryker77 |
Even with a Zero map. The fuel injection signal must travel from the ECM to the orginal Fuel injector connections then back to/through the PowerCommander then returns to the Fuel Injectors. Heat does effect the resistance(slightly) of wires. Did you ensure that the wires are not near any major heat. If you messed with the o2 sensor-- did you ensure that it was not damaged? Was the correct o2 safe anti-seize used? | ||
| Martin |
With the 4-wire sensor I was of the impression that you must you click sensor change 1 (or 2 in some rare circumstances in order to make changes inside the box.There are two parts to 'the box' according to the PC instructions that were linked-to earlier in the thread and the words can be a little confusing. I would be very interested if the 'box' were a different area for an XB. It does your installation/bike and heat build-up, although I have heard of the occasional 'bad' PCommander that is a bugger to track-down due to intermittent break-down. Good luck! | ||
| Fullpower |
dont think we have sidestand switch on XB. | ||
| Skully |
Blake wins the keys to the '87 Chevette with one blown piston! (Long story for another time) That is correct, with the zero map, the bike runs just as it did without the PC, except that it goes into skip spark mode after being ridden and then sitting for a few minutes. After riding home from work today, I did the usual: let it sit for 5 minutes, ignition off. When I tried to restart, it started normally then went into skip spark mode. I quickly attached the VDSTS software and found that the engine cylinder head temp was only 250dF, far below what I have observed before (and no skip spark mode then). I then asked the software to retrieve any diagnostic codes and it found a historic code, one where I had forgotten to attach the IAT sensor, but no current codes. So, I then followed the instructions on the FM and retrieved the diagnostic codes (quite simple actually) and it clearly flashed the code "23". According to the manual, error code 23 means that there is problem with the front injector. At this point, I don't know what the problem is. I let the bike cool for an hour or so and checked to see if there was still trouble code. Code 23 is still present in the ECM. So I it started the bike and it ran fine. I don't know how to tell if the code is a current or historic one. Now what? Any suggestions? Keith | ||
| Ingemar |
If the engine light goes on (and stays on) the error code is current. If the ecm doesn't detect the problem on startup the engine light goes off and the errorcode becomes 'historic'. At least, that is the way I understand it to work. To me it sounds like something doesn't like the heat. You already had the PC away from the heat so that is not the problem. Does the PC plug into the connectors on the injectors (like the TFI does), or does it connect somewhere else to pick up the signal to the injectors? Maybe one of the connectors doesn't like the heat. I guess I would check all connectors for good contact (maybe bend them a little bit), maybe use some dielectric spray or grease, clean off corrosion and keep connectors away from heat as far as possible. Tie 'em to another bundle of wires or the frame so they don't bounce around etc. Good luck! | ||
| Blake |
Kickstand safety switch; I'm tellin' you. Fullpower, It's a personal joke between Keith and I. Funny story now. Not so funny at the time; we were stuck on the roadside in Quanah, TX on a 100oF Summer day on our way to Colorado and then the Black Hills of S. Dakota. Yes, it was the dreaded kickstand safety switch and I had had it in my hands attempting to jumper it out when I talked myself out of it. "No it can't be electrical; the problem is too irregular and intermittent..." D'OH!!!! | ||
| M1combat |
Yeah, try the KSSS... After that, try swapping the PC injector plugs around... Maybe you plugged the rear injector plug into the front injector? What did you do to get the TPS signal? Are you CERTAIN that the connection between the green wire from the TPS to the grey wire on the PC is secure and a "good" connection? I used a dutch connector for mine and cut the lead off of the PC's grey wire so it would crimp... When tuning my PC, I only made mods above 4K RPM and above ?60%? throttle... When I got the maps they had sevens in "zone 2" I'll call it, of the box, the area that it says you "can adjust" with the O2 sensor. I zero'd those anyway so the entire "box" is zero. I rode it about 80 miles home yesterday after 1.71 hours of dyno time with two mufflers... About 10-15 miles of that was done at 130MPH in roughly five mile stretches. No problems so far... You should have the PCIII plugged into both Injector plugs, then into the injectors. The XB IS sequentially injected, so I "think" it matter which one goes where, but I'm not absolutely certain about this. You should have a ground (I had to ground mine using one of the allen bolts that secures the coil). You should have the connection to the O2 sensor. You should have the connection to the ECM's O2 sensor plug (one wire). You should have the connection to the green wire from the TPS. When you turn on the bike, the lights on the PCIII should indicate throttle position. Did you set the throttle position in the PCIII software? My dyno guy explained to me that you DON'T want to back the throttle plate down like you would when you reset the TPS itself. You want the 0% throttle position as far as the PCIII is concerned to be just closed throttle, bike idling. 100% of course is pretty self explanatory . There's an entry in one of the drop down lists that allows you to set the throttle position. It requires leaving the throttle closed, pressing a button that says "Throttle closed" (as I recall) and then opening the throttle to 100% and clicking a button that says "Throttle 100%" (or something like that). Obviously you want to do this with the bike turned on, but not running. Hope that helps... I'll check back again . |
