| Author |
Message |
    
Whodom
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 05:52 am: | 
|
Al, good idea to put the replacement parts on one page. One question though, what is the gasket made out of, unobtainium?
http://www.americansportbike.com/shop/cgi-bin/cp-app.cgi?usr=51F7285935&rnd=7200 857&rrc=N&affl=&cip=65.87.143.191&act=&aff=&pg=prod&ref=17118&cat=&catstr=HOME
I trust that price is a typo... |
Mikej
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 08:25 am: |
|
Al,
Thanks for the good work you do over there.
(edited)
(Message edited by mikej on June 30, 2005) |
Al_lighton
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 09:26 am: |
|
Hey, it's a deal at twice that price 
Price is now corrected.....
Al
(Message edited by al_lighton on July 01, 2005) |
Al_lighton
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 09:44 am: |
|
John,
You might be right, HD may have either never noticed it wasn't centered (unlikely) or just never bothered to center them after discovery because it wasn't causing problems with Sportsters. Perhaps I give them more credit than they deserve on fixing such a thing. After all, they continued making crappy gaskets and fixing rocker box leaks under warranty for over 10 years instead of just coming up with a decent gasket that doesn't fail. That had to have wasted a boatload of money...
Sure seems that centered would be better.
Your bike in your profile looks positively evil ...got more pics of it? Can you post a few in the s1 pictures section?
Al |
Bomber
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 09:57 am: |
|
while posting this thread (or a digest of it) in the "for the Factory" thread ain't a bad idea by any means, the factory IS aware of the issue -- I've not data other than that, and will not specualte (I know, a surprise to those that know me ;-} )
btw -- Y2K MaDeuece, approx 50K miles, both gears look fine (phew) |
Whodom
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 10:21 am: |
|
It would be good to confirm the gear alignment aspect of this problem: Is this the real root cause ? ("soft" drive gear would be OK if alignment was correct) Is the alignment off on all bikes or just those with problems? Has the gear alignment been corrected on the XB's? I sure would like to see an engineering drawing showing what the measurements were intended to be.
Is there an easier way to correct the gear alignment than machining the oil pump mating face (or case mounting face for that matter)? Is there any up-and-down "slop" in the oil pump driven gear/shaft assembly? Would it be possible to remove the gear/shaft assembly from the pump and install a spacer washer to raise the gear the appropriate amount? That would be an easy fix if it would work. |
Ceejay
| | Posted on Friday, July 08, 2005 - 11:26 pm: |
|
I pulled mine the other nite and it showed wear similar to the pictures posted by Whodom. I checked all "sides" and was on opposite "ends", no pump/driven gear wear. I never noticed this before, although I didn't really look for it as I had put new cams in over the winter. I put stainless oil lines on could that have caused more alignment issues? I called it good and zipped it back up but will probably replace soon. Not sure if anyone is counting but it's a '00 cyclone. |
Al_lighton
| | Posted on Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 01:43 pm: |
|
Hmm, think that Buell isn't out there listening to us?
new oil pump drive gear
It's a bit pricey at $49.25, compared to $15.00 for the stock one.
Al |
Buellistic
| | Posted on Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 02:04 pm: |
|
Al_lighton:
Why did you not have this gear before the FACTORY ???
Have you done any thing with the TUBE FRAME rear
exhaust header cover that "i" called you about ???
In BUELLing
LaFayette |
Littlebuggles
| | Posted on Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 05:18 pm: |
|
No more worry about if my pump gear teeth might shear off and destroy my motor is worth $43.00 to me.
Those who know, does this appear to be a new design or just a hardened gear, maybe taller or installs higher to fully engage?
-Mike |
Al_lighton
| | Posted on Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 06:12 pm: |
|
Lafayette,
It all comes down to time, my friend. It's not like I have the original drawings for the gear that I could turn over to a different vendor to produce in different materials.
On that heat shield, I called Kendon/KT, spoke to a few folks, they don't have the drawings or the willingness to produce the part. There isn't enough demand for such a part for me to develop a replacement, and then of course there's that time thing again.
Sorry,
Al |
Buellistic
| | Posted on Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 07:38 pm: |
|
RULE: If the factory says "RACING" part in refferance to a stock part that has been used for years they are giving you a HOT TIP that if you are going to turn over 6K put the part in ASAP !!! The -98/-91A oil pumps do have more
drag at 6K plus !!!
A number of years ago "i" beleive ZIPPER"S supplyed this gear of RACING QUALITY, "BUT"
for some reason stopped supplying it ???
In BUELLing
LaFayette |
Whodom
| | Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 10:20 pm: |
|
Al, any ideas what's different about this new part? Material, hardening, etc.?
I'm still curious about White Buell's mod (correcting the apparent mis-alignment of the gears).
At any rate, it is REALLY nice to know Buell is listening and that hopefully I'll only have to fix this thing once. |
Sportyeric
| | Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 10:48 pm: |
|
Just browsing through Buzz Buzzelli's "Sportster Performance Handbook (First Edition, 1992!!!) "Evolution Sportsters that are run at high speeds seem to be prone to this pump drive gear failure..... If you use your bike at high engine speeds....replace it with the iron gear fitted on Sportsters beginning in April 1992." (page 108)
So we seem to already have the improved version. But its not a new problem. That's slow progress! |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 10:54 pm: |
|
check out the new for 06 oil pump drive gear, same as what the race motors have been using for some time, avaiable at a dealer near you. |
Sportyeric
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 01:29 am: |
|
Yup. Just in time for me. I'll be ordering one soon (from Stone Mountain HD). Nice that I finally get a reward for procrastinating on my much delayed re-build.
(Message edited by Sportyeric on July 25, 2005) |
Ceejay
| | Posted on Monday, October 10, 2005 - 03:28 pm: |
|
I was wondering if this is a warm-up problem. Since we all run usually 20/50 and many-including me don't let the bike warm up, do you think that pushing that heavy, cold oil around before she gets all warmed up might be causing a problem. I have made many changes to my bike so I can't really count the fact that I never noticed any wear since I put the force on but after I put that on I haven't been letting it warm up since I have two kids that sleep later than me. I didn't notice any wear when doing the rebuild, but it seemed to be very accelarated after I put the force on since I only have put on about 3 thousand since then. Just thinking out loud. Any thoughts? I know some on this board religously let thier bikes warm up and have stated that they don't have problems, was wondering if any of those that had problems didn't let thier beauties warm up. I also bang mine off the rev limiter quite a bit so that might be another issue/cause. |
Fullpower
| | Posted on Monday, October 10, 2005 - 03:58 pm: |
|
you would not see much wear for the initial many thousands of miles, till the hardface is worn through, after that hard surface is worn you WILL have extremely rapid wear, and catastrophic failure as the oil pump is filled with broken tooth schrapnel. my (1998) sportster had this problem after 45,000 miles of EXTREME hi rpm abuse, including more than a few runs up to 7000 rpm.
not wishing to imply that the original part is defective, but rather that it is something worth keeping a close eye on, and replacing at the first sign of ANY visible wear.
mine failed right after a 6500 rpm shift into fifth gear, saw the oil pressure indicator illuminate, pulled clutch, shut ignition and coasted all the way into my garage. replaced oil pump and drive gear, all is well, motor survived. |
Al_lighton
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 09:55 am: |
|
Aaron Wilson wrote over on Sacborg:
"You trashed an oil pump drive gear, right? That happens because the crank is out of true. I sure wouldn't put it back together without retruing the thing.
You can confirm this by mounting a dial indicator on the right side and measuring the pinion shaft runout. My guess is you'll see .010 or more."
Makes perfect sense to me. And makes me wonder of the wisdom of "correcting" the problem with a new material gear. Not that a better wearing gear isn't a bad idea either, given the much lower wear on the mating oil pump gear.
I miss Aaron's wisdom over here.  |
Bluzm2
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 01:07 pm: |
|
So do I Al, so do I..... |
Peter
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 01:21 pm: |
|
quote:I miss Aaron's wisdom over here.
 |
Ceejay
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 01:46 pm: |
|
That would support the strange wear patterns-not worn all the way around, what would cause an out of true crank? I had a rough dismount over a year ago, poor from the factory? |
The_old_poop
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 12, 2005 - 11:13 pm: |
|
Re: It's a bit pricey at $49.25, compared to $15.00 for the stock one.
Not really. I suspect the bronze gear will be more durable in service than the original gear. In V8 racing this was a huge problem with roller camshafts and distributer drive gears. The camshafts were usually carburized 8620 steel and the dist. gear probably sintered iron. This problem was solved by the use of bronze distributer drive gears from the aftermarket.
RE: "You trashed an oil pump drive gear, right? That happens because the crank is out of true."
Unless the pinion gear was out of "true" or round or it was galling, or...
"I sure wouldn't put it back together without retruing the thing."
I agree!
You can confirm this by mounting a dial indicator on the right side and measuring the pinion shaft runout. My guess is you'll see .010 or more."
I hope Aaron's prediction is wrong and that it was a bad batch of gears. (My cheap gene rears its head in public.) This will have much more costly implications if Aaron is right. Anyway, since you will have the case off already--check it.
Re: "And makes me wonder of the wisdom of "correcting" the problem with a new material gear."
It is a part better suited for the job in any case, or the factory wouldn't have changed their gear. You did good Al!
"After all, they continued making crappy gaskets and fixing rocker box leaks under warranty for over 10 years instead of just coming up with a decent gasket that doesn't fail. That had to have wasted a boatload of money..."
You are making my point for me here.  In this case it will be our own boatload of money because I am betting most tuber Buell's aren't under warranty any longer.
I am as cheap as the next guy... well cheaper actually, but there is a time and place for it and this isn't one of them. I believe your gear and a quick runout check of the pinion shaft is by far the most elegant solution to the problem.
(Message edited by the_old_poop on October 12, 2005) |
Jackbequick
| | Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2005 - 10:11 am: |
|
The bronze gear looks like a simple and practical solution to the alignment problem. It will "wear in" and, hopefully, be useable for something like a typical engine life or oil pump service cycle.
Allowed/accumulated tolerances must combine to misalign the right angle helical gear drive to the oil pump. That type of gearing is not very tolerant of misalignment so something has to give.
The bronze gear is not as hard as a heat treated steel gear but is the same hardness throughout. It will hopefully "wear in" without being stressed or fractured and the small pieces that come off as it wears in are soft enough that they won't damage the engine.
The hardened steel gear was probably stressed more by any misalignment and in the worst cases could shed teeth.
Historically, bolting a oil pump into place did not always provide good alignment on the drive gears. It would require machining parts like the oil pump housings or shimming them in mounting to improve the alignment. That would have to be done in the blind by assembling and running the gears together and inspecting rub marks in blueing or wear patterns. Both are time consuming and not likely to be done during manufacture if it can be avoided.
I'll look at my oil pump drive this winter and go to the bronze gear if the alignment does not look to be right. Maybe I'll get lucky and have good alignment. If I do, I'll leave the steel gear there and, hopefully, escape one of the historical failures seen in this engine.
Misalignment in the pinion shaft has to be corrected with the crankshaft assembly out of the cases, the tolerance for runout is .001" so seeing .010" there would be a gross misalignment.
If the pinion shaft looked okay, I'd also check for eccentricity in the oil pump drive gear. It would be possible that the pinion shaft is okay and the gear is eccentric on the shaft.
Jack |
Marks3tbillet
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 10:11 pm: |
|
Can the oil pump drive gear be inspected from the bottom without removing the cam cover, etc.?
I'm hoping I can check it and only tear off the top end if the gear is worn badly.
Thanks for any help,
Mark |
Buellistic
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 10:53 pm: |
|
YES, all you have to do is pull the oil pump ...
It will come strieght down from the bottom of
the engine ...
There is no timing to do on it !!!
All you need is simple hand tools, small hose clamps, and a new gasket(GASKET,pump mounting
PN 26495-89A) which is a SPORTSTER GASGET ...
If you say BUELL oil pump gasket the Harley-Davidson PARTS TECHNICIAN may go BRAIN DEAD on you ???
You will be able to look up into the oil pump
hole and see the PINION OIL PUMP DRIVE GEAR ...
This gear will be worn , BUT not the oil pump gear as it is made of harder metal ...
If bad, be sure to replace it with THE HIGH
PERFORMANCE OIL PUMP DRIVE GEAR PN 26391-06 ...
It is PRICEY at $49.25, BUT WORTH IT !!!
In BUELLing
LaFayette |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 07:41 pm: |
|
They can be worn to nearly nothing on one side and as good as new on the other, so make sure you check it in a few positions. Just blip the starter (making sure the engine does not start) a few times.
You are running without oil, so don't blip it much. |
Marks3tbillet
| | Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 07:16 pm: |
|
Thanks for the tips guys.
Mark |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 08:52 pm: |
|
By the way, click on my name and you will see a picture of what mine looked like in bike. That shot was taken when I dropped the pump for inspection. It was easier to take a picture with the digital cam (Nikon Coolpix 950 with killer macro mode) then crawl under the bike. |
Jayvee
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 01:54 pm: |
|
Can I ask an embarrassing question?
I just bought the oil drive gear on eBay that pictured with the Buell bag having part number 26391-06 but when I get the gear it isn't bronze but steel grey.
Anybody have the part number of the steel gear, it is different right? Was this part number 26391-06 ever assigned to a grey steel gear?
I'm afraid he may have sold me his take-off
gear as the new one (by mistake I'm sure.) |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 08:27 pm: |
|
Buell web site shows that part # and a gear with a bronze alloy finish...
http://www.buell.com/en_us/gear/accessories/Product.asp?Menu_ID=2&ProductLineID= 2&CategoryID=1&ProductID=3138 |
Jayvee
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 06, 2006 - 12:36 pm: |
|
Is it only the finish? I thought the whole gear was bronze. Anyway, I can find the one on the Buell web site, and last night I found the part number for M2, it ended in "-88" so I guess that's the $15 original one people have been referring to.
Definitely I wanted the bronze-y one.
The seller offered me a 'partial refund', we're still back-and-forthing. Seems like he may have been "mistaken" about the part number. (!) |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, September 07, 2006 - 02:59 am: |
|
I meant "appearance", I'm not sure what the actual material composition is. Pretty sure its not the same as the old steel OEM piece though. |
Xldevil
| | Posted on Thursday, September 07, 2006 - 05:26 am: |
|
AFAIK it is made of a beryllium bronze composition.I have installed two of them so far and they definitely looked like bronze,not like steel.
This drive gear has been used in the european Buell race scene without failures.
Ralph
(Message edited by xldevil on September 07, 2006) |
Xldevil
| | Posted on Monday, December 25, 2006 - 09:05 am: |
|
Now that I took out my beryllium opdg and inspected it after 20k kilometers,I can't find any signs of wear at all.It looks pretty new.
Seems to be very durable.
Ralph |
M1a65
| | Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 01:25 pm: |
|
We use Beryllium to make aircraft landing gear bushings which naturally need to be extreemly reliable. Beryllium is also a controlled substance since nuke warhead cases are made of it as well (just a gee-whiz bit of info). |
|
