| Author | Message | |||
     Mikej |
Help, busted screw.  Changed the primary/trans lube this evening, and as I was buttoning things back up, one of the clutch inspection screw heads popped off. You know, those nasty little button head cap or torx head screws that sometimes gives people all sorts of problems. Well, right at the base of the pocket in the head of the screw is where it came off, head clean came right off. Left a little taper just enough to prevent the inspection cover from slipping over the remaining shank, but I'll attack that little bit tomorrow or the next day with the Dremel tool. In the mean time, does anyone have the part number or actual dimensions of those four little screws? Also, either the S2 came with non-torx socket heads, or a previous owner changed them out due to torx-head-aversion. My parts book is buried in a box someplace, still not unpacked from my recent move. I'll call around to a few dealers tomorrow to see if they have any in stock, but as we all know it sometimes helps to have the actual part number handy. Thank you for any help. MikeJ (rode today, looks like not tomorrow though, bummer) | |||
| Shooter |
there 1/4 -20 , 3/4" I believe, a 1" will work as well. | |||
| Rempss |
Mike, 1/4-20 X 5/8", change them to allen head from the hardware store, use a small washer under the head. If you use stainless only torque to 5 ft/lbs and use anti-sieze. Jeff | |||
| Reepicheep |
The Harley dealers have these on the floor as well, allen head replacements (in chrome of course). The torx heads strip out if you even look at them sideways, so it is a VERY popular part. They may call it a derby cover if I recall correctly, and they come in a nice little Harley blister pack. | |||
| Mikej |
Thanks all. Looks like I'm spending lunch at the hardware store today. | |||
| Ara |
Are the screws for the little primary chain inspection cover the same? | |||
| Mikej |
I don't know about the thread size, but the heads are definitely different as I looked at them this morning. The two screws for the little chain-slack inspection cover have thin wide flat heads compared to the more button-headish four screws on the larger cover. | |||
| Rempss |
The chain inpspection cover is 1/4-20 x 5/8" flat head. Same info for stainless. If anyone needs any screw/bolt sizes I have an entire list. Jeff | |||
| Bluzm2 |
Mike, I went the stainless route on my M2. Put a washer under the bolt and all is well. I used locktite blue on everthing. Hope it works like an antiseize! Brad | |||
| Rempss |
That needs a second. Anti-sieze not Locktite. There is a product called Vibratite that has both properties, but will not operate in high temperatures. If you need to secure it put a lockwasher under it. All of my external fasteners are stainless, none have come loose over time and vibration. With anti-sieze they will come loose when I want them to! Use lockwashers under screws; locknuts on bolts if needed. I only consider locking methods on brake, supension and other critical fasteners myself. I have never had a fastener come loose, I do check them periodically, good way to spend some extra time during a wash. I'm sure I have said it before, standard US fasteners in stainless are only slightly stronger than Grade 2, use 6/12pt ARP if you need a Grade 8. If you are going to use stainless don't use anything but ARP on suspension and brakes!! Metric has a 2 lows and medium strength Property Class 50, Class 70 and Class 80. Class 50 is very weak and should not be considered for anything but a light duty use. Jeff | |||
| Ara |
Funny thing: On my S3 the screws on the clutch cover are hex, and those on the primary chain inspection cover are torx. None have washers underneith. Gotta find six SS washers and replace those torx fasteners. Antiseize, not locktite! Russ | |||
| Rempss |
Ara, Are the chain inspection cover screws flat head? My cover has countersunk holes for flat head screws to fit into... I guess as long as the o-ring seal the hole a cap screw/washer would work and give all of my US cap's a standard socket size, I like standard sizes.  Jeff | |||
| Ara |
Rempss, Yes I'm pretty sure they are flat heads, like yours. Not sure a flat-bottom hex cap screw is the right thing to put into a conical-bottom hole. What is solution? Copper washer? Careful grinding of back of cap screw?  Russ | |||
| Ara |
Jeff, I noticed that the factory cap screws that hold on the side covers are plated, not stainless. I was thinking that one could replace the factory cap screws one-by-one with SS cap screws without disturbing the gasket. Are standard SS fasteners stronger than the factory cap screws? Can the factory cap screws be replaced by standard SS fasteners or must ARP fasteners be used? (ARP is a a new one for me. What's that stand for?) Thanks for your help with this - you seem to know quite a bit about this subject. BTW, I e-mailed ASB to see if Tat and Maria have ready made replacements for the primary chain inspection cover fasteners. I'll post the response here when I receive it. Russ | |||
| Rempss |
Ara, The factory fasteners are zinc plated for corrosion resistance. After parking beside a well-water sprinkler system for a day, most were corroded with a white "powdery" coating. I looked at American Sportbike kits, none covered the entire bike, and all were polished, I did not want polished. Found a company that specializes in stainless fasteners - Totally Stainless $5 for a catalog, used as a discount on your 1st order. I then spent a bunch of time measuring and looking up screw and bolt sizes. Then looked into strength, all HD cap screws are SEMS (washer attached to the screw) and Grade 8 - stamped on the side of the screw. As an aside that stamping is not needed, all US cap screws are Grade 8 or better. All of the hex head are also Grade 8. I replaced all cover screws, and other allen caps with screws and a washer under the head, they are all holding parts in tension, not shear, and don't require much torque. These are not much stronger than Grade 2, but do they need to be? Most are fastening 2 alumium components that have a lower yield than the fasteners anyway. Then came the critical parts brakes, suspension, engine tie-rods and other parts where the fastener in stressed in a shear condition. These I replaced with ARP (Automotive Racing Products) 12 Point stainless fasteners, Totally Stainless does carry these. They are stronger than Grade 8. Metric stainless is available in Property Class 80 grade, about Grade 5 US, where higher strength is needed. Make the following decisions for yourself, check some catalogs - Fastenal, McMaster Carr, internet searches. Be well informed of what you are doing, I researched this for 6 months before buying fastener #1, but that made it OK for me, others may see things a little differently. That's OK. The only standard steel fasteners still exposed on my bike are the rear shock and the 2 lower screws (5/16) on the bottom of the primary cover. I can not find a metric "Grade 8" to put on the shock yet, and the ARP fasteners have a wide head so they do not fit into the recess of the Banke shifter mount. Yes, I did just remove and replace most of these with the covers still attached, one at time and have had no leaks.  I have an Excel file of my order (includes sizes and quantities) if anyone would like it. I was impressed with the company, I listed each component and quantities for my recognition, they packaged and labeled each seperately so I did not need to look at my sheets just read the package and install. Jeff - Man, can I ramble on or what? If anyone has anything to add, please do, I investigated this by reading from many sources, and 500 miles of riding so far. I would like to know firsthand experiences or information in case some of mine is incorrect or needs to be modified. | |||
| Rempss |
Maybe we should move this to a "Fastener" Quick Board topic? Anyone know how to do that? Jeff | |||
| Ara |
Jeff: That's not a ramble, that's a darn good post. Thank you! I am indeed interested in your Excel spreadsheet. If you'd be kind enough to send it to me at Seriousfun3@yahoo.com, I'd really appreciate it. Let me ask a couple questions for clarity: You went with standard SS fasteners for engine covers, not ARPs? Your source for all fasteners was Totally Stainless? What was your solution for the primary chain inspection cover? What did this project cost you? Russ | |||
| Mikej |
Jeff, How about attaching your Excel file using the "insert attachment" icon? Would save you sending out a bunch of emails, and would allow us with email attachment size restrictions an option to download it. MikeJ | |||
| Ccryder |
Jeff: Good hard work!  I'll take a copy. Thanks Neil S. p.s. Where's Blake when you need him  ? Let's get this posted. | |||
| Rempss |
I am updating the list right now, making note of what is for X1 only. Combining 2 lists, I'll attach it here (if I can figure it out) this afternoon. It will have Totally Stainless catalog numbers, but I deleted prices because the last catalog I recieved had a slight price increase. All from Totally Stainless, great people - tech guy is Doc. Total cost was about $230, but I bought a bunch of spares, mostly washers and locknuts. Also got some "in case this doesn't work I'll have these already", but those are now deleted from the list, my mistake your gain. Ara, The list is broken down by type, you will see where I used what. Most of the fasteners do not need to be high strength, standard stainless is still stronger than the aluminum being fastened together. I, for the mot part, used high strength in shear load location only front rotor, tie-bars, muffler mounts etc. It will be here soon. If anyone else has input here, please input, I would hate to be responsible for eveyone's bike splitting in half!  Jeff | |||
| Mikej |
Please don't delete the prices, just add a note that prices were from an older catalog. Helps with local pricing options. Unless you'd really like to delete them.  | |||
| X1glider |
Jeff, I might be able to find the fasteners you need. We have a highly specialized source at the company I work for, they won't talk to you directly unfortunately. Tell me the exact size and pitch thread, length, head type and drive type. Also tell me how it will be used so I can choose the proper thread class. If you are also willing to change from fine to coarse or vice versa, say so, if you have a bolt that's mated to a nut. Fine threads do not vibrate loose like coarse pitches, which is why I mention it. If you'd rather not, that's ok too. If they have them, I'll let you know. As a general note on fasteners, Jeff and everybody: Be careful when torquing them if the materials have changed. For instance: an OEM spec'd grade 2 fastener in aluminum can be torqued higher than the grade 8 before stripping. The key here is fastener elongation, which is one of many ways to determine proper torque. Elongation is actually better than a torque wrench because coefficient of friction factors are eliminated (important if using anti-seize, etc). (Unfortunately, you need a hole in the bolt to measure length or ultrasonic sound equipment.) This could potetially lead to another issure: gasket seating pressure. Gaskets are designed to work under a certain gasket seating pressure range and this is determined by things like total surface area, distance between fasteners, and tension in the fastener. That said, if you go to a grade 8 from a grade 2 fastener, you might not be able to achieve the necessary tension in the fastener to produce the desired gasket seating pressure before stripping. So changing grades is not a good idea in those instances. So choose a fastener that will stretch close to equal it's mating thread, unless you need more shear strength. Something extra to think about, huh? If you're interested, I can give the formulas to calculate torque before stripping. This does require knowing both material's tensile strength. | |||
| Rempss |
A good place for info on metric types Metric Fasteners. This will be important as most of the metric fasteners I used are Property Class 70, I think only the front axle pinch screws are Class 80. Jeff - Trying to make this chart make sense to you all and keep up this work thing. Sometimes not working on a commision would work out better when I'm wasting time. | |||
| Rempss |
Here goes, keep in mind this is for an X1. It is almost complete, I need to see my bike before I can say it's 100%. If you see some strange quantities I upped some of them so I would have spares. Let me know any questions you have. Jeff  | |||
| X1glider |
I don't know about anyone else, but I see the attachment icon and it won't open anything. | |||
| Rempss |
I tried, and didn't succeed. File is 200+ KB, need to find a different method? Tries to Zip it, but damn it if I can't do that either!!!!!!!  Jeff | |||
| Doncasto |
Jeff: If you can send the Excel file to me, I will find a way to upload it. I work with the RAN page in Excel and should be able to find a way to either post it in the announcement section on this topic or find some other method of making it more perminent. Don Casto PS. Use my primary email castodon@worldnet.att.net as I suspect Hotmail may have a file size limiter in place. | |||
| Rempss |
One more try first. Feeling daring.  Jeff
| |||
| Rempss |
| |||
| Doncasto |
Jeff: I was able to download your *.zip file and upload as an announcment for this topic. It may need a little tweeking to make the format more read-able, but is now a part of the Knowledge Vault. When the Blakester gets back he may have some more technically sound approach to displaying your work, but for now it is safe. Great work, BTW. Don |
Fasteners Zip