| Author | Message | ||
     Aaron |
An old issue of Battle2win had an air cleaner dyno shootout, for whatever that's worth. The Hypercharger kicked butt. It had the "Pro" kit, which is apparently a half-inch spacer and a thicker element. But knee clearance sucks with that thing. You gotta really be in a rainy mess before you'll cause any real problem with the Force. And there's a dry sock you can put over it. | ||
| Kahuna |
I've been researching the intake issue for a while and consistantly i was told that the Force was poor in quality! And that you had to grind the IAT sensor to make it fit and the like. Finally, I've decided to go with the Buell Race Cleaner for the S3 and am really happy with it. Pics above. | ||
| Ara |
I agree with Johnny that the slot at the bottom rear of the Hypercharger should make any ram air effects minor. If it doesn't, the additional air will have no other function than to make the mixture leaner. If you look at motorcycles designed for true ram air, they presurize the float bowls in addition to pressurizing the air intake. That keeps the mixture in balance. Without that plumbing, all I think you have is a cool looking air filter shroud that allows the filter to get wet in the rain and screws up the air/fuel mixture. My analysis, FWIW. Russ | ||
| Buellistic |
ATT: BUELLERS Take the stock AIR BOX(who said please do!!!!!)... Reroute the head breather hoses...... Fill the three holes in the snorkle and modify so a K&N P/N R/C3680 fits on the end. This will fit is side the stock AIR BOX cover!!!! On a dyno my 97S3T picked up 2HP, some more bottom end torque and the cams come on at 3k instead of 4K!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In buelling BUELLISTIC and/or Hardley-Harley | ||
| Cyclone |
I bought my first Buell (2001 M2 Low) new off of the show room floor, which they had already had a Vance & Hines muffler and a Hyper Charger on it. I loved the looks of it so much, that I bought it. 10 months later I ran in to someone that races buells at the drag strip, and he said he loves to show up on the line against someone that has a Hyper Charger because he always beats them. He said it works just fine until you get over 80mph, the airflow is forced around the outside of it instead of directly into it because it is placed to far back from the front of the bike. But also said that the 1/2" spacer gets it out far enough to work. No thanks! I have hit my knee on that damn thing enough, let alone the thing out farther. He told me that I sould look into the Force because it sticks farther forward into the airstream. Comments anyone?  | ||
| Blake |
Sounds like total BS to me. The "airstream" ain't doing anything to help a force intake, and even if ram action were possible, it doesn't come into play until your speedo breaks three figures. | ||
| Spiderman |
if you get the force you can get a cover for it that is kinda like raim air (see blakes comment)  and remember you can have to much air as messed up as that sounds. | ||
| Shotgun |
I also have a 2001 M2L that I added a Hypercharger to. Believe me, there is no problem from 80 upwards except hanging on! | ||
| Blake |
Spiderman: Like I said, under 100 mph, there is no significant ram air effect. | ||
| Loki |
Forget the "Racewinder" cover for the Force for any performance gains(on the street). I am running one at this time and it is coming off. It actually hurt my last dyno run. It looks great, helps with the wet weather, but..... Loki | ||
| Spiderman |
i know blake i was agreeing with you. no raim air works on a dyno unless you are on a moving truck  | ||
| Blake |
Yeah, a truck moving at 100+ mph!  | ||
| Cyclone |
My problem is that my buddy has a 2001 Kantana (Crap-tana)750 and he can pull away from me after 80mph. (That sucks!) And after talking to that guy that was talking bad about the HyperCharger said that no 750 Crap-tana should be able to touch me (until I hit top end). Since I never had the stock airbox to compare the Hypercharger too, I was hopeing he was right because I would love to leave my buddy in the dust. So that is why I was going to buy the Force. | ||
| Ara |
Cyclone - What other mods have been done to your bike? Carb kit? Exhaust can? Race module? Maybe we can dope out a low-cost performance package for you. But one thing you should remember: You didn't buy a motorcycle so that you could go faster than your buddy, and you didn't buy a Buell because it ws the fastest thing on earth. Keep it in perspective, and we'll see what we can do to advise you. Russ | ||
| Cyclone |
Ara, Yeah I know I didn't buy the fastest bike made, and frankly I don't really care, I love my M2. I just didn't know if buying it with a Hypercharger hurt the performance. My M2 has a Vance & Hines Can and a Jet kit. I had it put on the dyno and it put out 75.8 horse and 59.3 torque. I since then I rejetted the carb again and its doing even better. Other than that It's a stock bike. I would appreciate any advice you could give me. Once again, I just want my M2 to be the best it can be. I don't want to do something that will take away power from it.  | ||
| Ara |
Cyclone, I'm not an engine tuner (and I've never slept in a Holiday Inn Express), so I'm hoping that the group can collectively help you out here. What jets are you running and is your jet kit a stage one? If you're using the Dynojet Stage 1 kit and the accelerator pump tower is from the kit, too, then I have some personal experience for you. Stock coil, ignition module, etc? Russ | ||
| Cyclone |
Ara, I don't have a DynoJet Kit. I just installed a #200 main jet, #45 pilot jet, I turned out the air bleed screw 3 turns, drilled out the hole on the bottom of the vacuum piston to 1/8" , polished the piston and cut three coils of the spring to help with throttle response. I have not had it back on the dyno but judging by how it did against my friends bike it was a definate improvement. | ||
| Sybren |
Does anybody know the dimensions of the Forcewinder? I need the length of the filter, the length of the tube (the 'flat' length, not the 3D length) and the position of the sensor. I'm making an intake out of the old snorkel, and want to make it perform not too bad. I'm hoping the Forcewinder has optimum dimensions. The snorkel intake is just a temporal solution until I have made up my mind on what to do with the intake. | ||
| Sportyeric |
BHR posted this link on the GDB:mototuneusa. It reminds me of articles in Hot XL a few years ago about Bob Johnson of Johnson Engine Technologies, in Rhode Island, I think. He claimed 90hp Sportsters using stock cams, as I recall, based on narrow ports creating better mixing, therefore efficiency,and 883 exhaust valves. Has anyone experience with his work? | ||
| Mikej |
Eric, Sounds a bit like the thinking of the Buzzelli (sp?) Sportster book where the 883 heads on 1200 cylinders can produce better power than the larger 1200 head valves due to flow dynamics, or something like that. | ||
| Sportyeric |
Generally, the advantage of 883 heads is in better midrange torque from the smaller valves. This detuning is used frequently to provide better real world power out of race designed engines. What was weird about Johnsons work was that he was getting big HP numbers also. I'll have to dig up the article. The other interesting thing about Johnson is that he looks like my twin. I was going to send him a picture and ask if there was a separated-at-birth price available. | ||
| X1glider |
I really ought to know better, but it didn't even cross my mind...about the ram air effect of a hypercharger sitting on a stationary dyno. My dealer has a fan on his dyno that blows into it, but granted, it's blowing at a single speed not accelerating like the bike would be. I'm also now curious about sealing off the slot in my hypercharger, or at least making it smaller. Back to the dynos. If there is any advantage to having a hypercharger, it is this: instead of breathing hot air radiating off the engine from the underside of the air cleaner assembly (on carb models), you're getting cooler air coming in through the front. Maybe some rain too, but I guess that's the benefit of the slot in the bottom rear, drainage. Bob | ||
| Loki |
For those in the know Got a thinker for ya(more so for me). I understand the reasons for not polishingthe intake tract. That is after the carb. How about before the carb? In this instance I am referring to the Forcewinder. Would it be a benifit or a detractor to do a semi-polish job, just short of a mirror finish? | ||
| Blake |
X1Glider: A hypercharger does not benefit from a ram effect. Even if it did, the benefits of ram effect, even on the best of installations like the Japanese hyper-bikes, doesn't show up until 100+ mph. Loki: Neither. It's just too short and to big relatively speaking to make a difference. | ||
| Loki |
Just in the wandering thought stage of waiting to go for a ride. | ||
| X1glider |
Blake: yes, you are right, the Hypercharger, as we buy it, cannot benefit from the ram air effect at normal speeds. But who rides at normal speeds?  Race cars benefit from them because they are almost always coupled with a supercharger sucking big gulps of air directly underneath it. For that matter they don't even need the hypercharger, just a velocity stack. On a motorcycle, other than directing cooler air from the frontside instead of engine superheated air, the Hypercharger has the benefit of holding a certain volume of AVAILABLE air (provided the slot is closed up). It may not need all the available air, so what isn't needed escapes thru the slot, and what is needed is sucked in thru the filter element. So in a sense, it is the same thing as an airbox in a Japanese super sport bike, nothing more. Only it doesn't need to be as large a volume because our V-twins don't operate at the super high RPMs. They breathe about the same amount per revolution but do it more frequently. Which is also why they have more and larger throttle bodies. | ||
| X1glider |
Loki, this is additional info to my previous post. Since I am an engineer who makes his living in the fluid dynamics field, I might be able to shed some light on this subject...or I might confuse everyone and make them think that anything we do is hopeless because the design as a whole is a compromise for financial reasons. Ok, you understand that it isn't recommended to polish the intake manifold because you want to generate turbulence to help atomize the fuel/air mixture. Good. This is true but there is a downside. Turbulence slows down the velocity and velocity is what will fill your cylinders to a higher percentage. So, too rough of a finish won't be good either. But it might not matter at all because the intake manifold tract is curved which causes the mix to spiral. And since the manifold is shared between 2 cylinders which alternately suck air, there is already enough turbulence going on. If I had it my way, I would have separate intake tracts and carbs. Now for the other side of the carb. On this side, polishing is a good thing. We want as much velocity as possible. So, the straighter the path of flow, the higher the velocity. This means you can also polish the carb venturi on the intake side. I doubt it's a theoretically perfect veturi anyway. 10 degrees in, 14 degrees out is the theoretical ideal. Now to blow all this out of the water. The piston's downstroke will create vaccuum (suction.) How much is determined by the rings' ability to seal, cam timing, profile, duration, and lift according to the pistons' speed of travel at given angular locations. Also, shape, area and length of the intake tracts, valve seat profile and size of the valve. Given this info, a downstroking piston can create a certain amount of suction. No more, no less. The cylinder sucks in only what it wants (normally aspirated.) With 0 restriction, you can get 100% cylinder fill. With an air cleaner, tract of varying areas and valves in the way you will get less. The way to keep the cylinder fill percentage high is to increase the available volume of air and get it into the cylinder at as high a velocity as possible. You can get over 100% cylinder fill, but that requires turbos and superchargers. So, polish away, but unless you've had a lot of good headwork which was matched to work with your selected cams, don't waste your time. In case you're wondering about that statement, a good headworker knows that a cam's specs should determine the port, polish and valve sizing of a head. Not all headwork is created equal, a generic head job is just that, generic, and it might not work well for the cam you select. It's hard to find a good place to do this. I used Woody at Wildwood performance. He knows how. So, hopefully you can understand why everyone makes performance upgrades as a system instead of looking for the magic in a single part. So if you can't afford to do it all at once, wait til you can. The one part a time thing usually results in tuning problems, less than satisfying performance, etc. I'd rather ride than spend my time tuning, fixing or jerry rigging my bike because of the problems I've caused by adding a single part. Lecture is over, class dismissed.  | ||
| Aaron |
You left out exhaust augmented intake flow and wave travel in both the intake and exhaust. Both of these things contribute greatly to cylinder fill. Oh, and the inertia of the incoming fuel wrt the intake close point plays a big role. | ||
| X1glider |
Can't always think of everything, thanks.  Yeah, the intake/exhaust valve overlap is important in bringing the intake charge up to speed as well. And for the even more technically minded, sound propogation plays an important part as well. Stepped headers are designed to play up this part. You got me on the incoming fuel part! In my line of work, I design large pump equipment, so my impellers only receive fluid from one source at one speed, not different fluids mixed in at some stage. So, you'll have to give me an explanation on your point, Aaron. | ||
| Aaron |
Simple concept really ... the single most influential cam timing event is the intake close point. Notice that on all cams, the intake valve closes well after the piston has started upwards on it's compression stroke. That's because the incoming fuel has inertia, and maximum cylinder fill occurs when you take advantage of that inertia, even when the piston is coming up. So the ideal intake close point is a function of how much inertia you have, which is influenced heavily by the rpm you're running. Late intake close points = high rpm cams. Late intake close points also demand more compression, since you lose considerable cylinder pressure at low rpms where inertia isn't helping you. A late intake close + low compression = sluggish motor, early intake close + high compression = detonation, very important to match the two. Some intake close points: Stock M2 cams: 41 degrees ABDC Lightning cams: 48 degrees ABDC Red Shift 585's: 58 degrees ABDC Andrews N87's: 70 degrees ABDC Retarding a cam adds top end, advancing adds bottom end, because the intake close event is so important. |
