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Buell Forum » Knowledge Vault (tech, parts, apparel, & accessories topics) » Dyno Charts/Testing (Show us the POWER!) » Dyno Test Results - Forcewinder & Race Kit Filter » Archive through March 03, 2002

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Author Message   Oldman Posted on Sunday, February 24, 2002 - 10:28 pm:        just with a forcewinder and 45 slowjet and 95 mainjet   Oldman Posted on Sunday, February 24, 2002 - 10:40 pm:        one day i'll get used to this image thing   Kahuna Posted on Monday, February 25, 2002 - 07:31 am:        can you predict how the hypercharger compares? I now have it down to a choice between the force and the hypercharger? but I much prefer the look of the hypercharger...   Loki Posted on Monday, February 25, 2002 - 07:40 am:        yeah my purchase of a Forcewinder may be vindicated......Now the Racewinder looks pretty hanging there but, the cover comes off the next time I dyno the thing.   Lsr_Bbs Posted on Monday, February 25, 2002 - 09:19 am:        Observations: the extra intake length of the Force is giving it an advantage over a specific rpm range. It actually outperforms the zero-restriction configuration over that range despite having it's filter in place. Sortta like the stock airbox as well, maybe? I've always prefered the setup of the stock airbox to the race kit for this very reason. The motor needs a long intake runner (really should be longer, but who want's a 2 ft. pipe protruding forward of the bike?). Neil Garretson X0.5   Aaron Posted on Monday, February 25, 2002 - 10:52 am:        I'm curious, why do you think it needs to be that long? The length essentially determines the rpm range at which you get a ram air effect from the wave reflection. Looks like the Force is tuned for about 5000 to 6000rpm, which ain't a bad place to put it.   Lsr_Bbs Posted on Monday, February 25, 2002 - 12:14 pm:        I was just joking/exagerating...shoulda used a smilie or three. Compared to 95% of what you see on a XL or Buell (which is almost no intake runner length), the stock or Forcewinder setup is a *long* intake runner. Somewhere I did do some math, and the oem buell length isn't bad, but you could see where they had to make a compromise for packaging reasons...but a longer runner definately has high rpm advantages, just not very practicle on a motorcycle. Yup, I agree w/ the 5-6k, that's exactly what I felt w/ playing w/ snorkel/no-snorkel on my bike...I liked the high rpm better. Neil Garretson X0.5   Aaron Posted on Monday, February 25, 2002 - 12:36 pm:        I'll tell ya, I like the Force piece. I didn't think I would, it just didn't look like it would work hanging out there in the turbulent breeze like that with a relatively small element. I fell into one by accident, I bought a bike that had one on it, Susy's S1. I moved it to my M2 and put the M2's race kit filter on the S1 because I needed more knee clearance and Susy didn't. Well, much to my surprise, the M2 picked up top speed. So the turbulence isn't hurting it too bad! Anyway, I went from being a skeptic to being a fan. I should give one word of warning, though. I had a Forcewinder equipped M2 on the dyno once that was performing poorly on the top end particularly. Swapping to my Force air cleaner fixed it right up. I got to looking for a difference, and what I found was around the float bowl vent the two air cleaners were very different. Mine has a large open area cast right into it, the other had the area cast closed and a slot machined into it to vent the float bowl to the intake stream. I ground out that area with a die grinder, to be open like mine, and voila, the bike came alive. Not sure if there was an alignment issue or just the nature of the way the slot works versus having a big open area around the bowl vent. In any event, the guy went away happy, we found a bunch of power on his M2 that day. I sent a note to Force but don't know the rest of the story. Something to watch for anyway. Took about 10 minutes to fix it, not a big deal.   Lsr_Bbs Posted on Monday, February 25, 2002 - 04:27 pm:        That's really interesting as the float bowl vent setup I'm running is totally out of the flow stream w/ the stock snorkel - I just drilled a hole in the plastic piece (in fact it's only about 3/4 lined up correctly, oops). In fact, I always thought it needed to be in stiller air, not really in the intake stream. Though performing poorly, could he/you tell it was w/o it being on the dyno??? Neil Garretson X0.5   Buellistic Posted on Monday, February 25, 2002 - 05:23 pm:        ATT: BUELLERS Lets not make a mountain out of a mole hill!!!!!! Remove these parts: Grommet,snorkel Filter housing K&N filter P/N BU1297 Reroute front& rear oil breather hoses (improvise). Reuse Snorkel,air cleaner,internal with following modifications: Plug the three holes(improvise). Grind down the grommet flange. Put on the same K&N air cleaner as as comes with the FORCE air cleaner. NOTE: DO SHORTEN THE SNORKEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You will have to improvise by making a washer for the allen screw next to the three holes you plugged for an aditional holding position. This will fit under the stock air box with no modifications to the cover. I got 2hp and some more low end torque and my S3 cams now come on at 3K!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In buelling BUELLISTIC and/or Hardley-Harley   Aaron Posted on Monday, February 25, 2002 - 07:13 pm:        Neil: I didn't ride the bike before we fixed it, but looking at the dyno result and listening to it as I tried to do pulls, yeah, it would've been immediately apparent to anyone. It just broke up a lot and ran like crap above about 5000rpm. You could hear and feel it.   Henrik Posted on Monday, February 25, 2002 - 10:34 pm:        I found quite a bit of surplus weld in that exact spot on my Force Winder as well. Thought it didn't look right and filed it away. Glad to hear I did the right thing Henrik   Kevinhern Posted on Wednesday, February 27, 2002 - 04:25 pm:        Damn it Aaron! You had to go and prove how good the force intake is! I was perfectly happy with my pro series ham can until you posted those dyno sheets. I just ordered the Force from ASB. This silly website is costing me a ton of cash! I'm reading about Nallin this and Force that and it keeps me awake at night trying to figure out how to get this stuff. But I like it...........a lot. Kevin '02 M2   Kevinhern Posted on Wednesday, February 27, 2002 - 04:32 pm:        Oppps. I actually ordered it from Sport Twin not ASB. If anyone else is interested in getting a Force intake, the cost is $200.xx with shipping. Kevin   Se7enth_Sign Posted on Wednesday, February 27, 2002 - 05:19 pm:        Does anyone know how far the Force intake sticks out from the body? I'm wondering if it will fit under a Eurofairing (the fairing comes with what looks like an S1 oval intake) thanx   Blake Posted on Thursday, February 28, 2002 - 01:40 am:        I'm guessing that the Force will protrude about an inch farther than the ham can race filter setup.   Oldman Posted on Thursday, February 28, 2002 - 07:33 pm:        just measured mine, and from the carb flange to the outside of the carb filter, it was 5"   Se7enth_Sign Posted on Thursday, February 28, 2002 - 10:44 pm:        Thanx... I may go with the idea of using the stock snorkle and a K&N filter...   Jerome Posted on Friday, March 01, 2002 - 09:07 am:        What's the length of the Force intake INSIDE the filter ? I ask this because I've the RRC aircleaner on my M2, which externally appears identical to the Force with the big cylindrical K&N, and the intake is much proeminent inside the filter, reaching nearly the snorkel length of the OEM breadbox. I was told by Thomas Voll, the boss of RRC, that it was the best length he came up with using dyno tuning. Maybe there's still a little to be gained using the RRC instead of the Force... And not only because it's european-made ! :-) I've posted pictures of my bike on the "cool Buell pics" here if anyone wonders how the RRC filter looks like.   Oldman Posted on Saturday, March 02, 2002 - 09:07 am:        hey jerome, mine just slips on not even a full inch, after that it cocks the filter out to the side.   Jerome Posted on Saturday, March 02, 2002 - 12:32 pm:        Thanks Oldman. Therefore there's a big difference between the Force and the RRC. I've checked in my garage today. The RRC inlet has the same length as the OEM snorkel in the breadbox, so it intrudes into the K&N filter by several inches. Too bad that Aaron's dyno is so far from my home ! In what direction is the inlet length favoring rpms ? Does a longer inlet favors low or high rpms compared to a short inlet ? Aaron ?   Aaron Posted on Saturday, March 02, 2002 - 02:39 pm:        Jerome: intake tract ram effect occurs when the wave generated by the closing of the intake valve goes out the intake tract, hits atmosphere, and turns around and comes back as a positive wave. If the reflected wave arrives back at the valve while the intake valve is opening, it'll help cylinder fill. If it's closed, it'll just head back out the inlet and reflect back again. The wave gets weaker with every reflection. Waves travel at a constant speed regardless of engine rpm, which is why a given intake length only hits the open intake at certain rpm's. So in general, longer will lower the tuned rpm, up until you start catching the next lower reflection. Some formulas from Denish's book: 2nd wave: (1100 * .5 intake duration * .96) / rpm 3rd wave: (1100 * .5 intake duration * .705) / rpm 4th wave: (1100 * .5 intake duration * .538) / rpm This gives the length in inches from the intake valve to the intake tract opening. BTW, Exhaust systems work much the same way, except the idea is to hit the chamber during overlap (both valves open) with a negative wave instead of a positive wave. If you do that, you can actually yank on the intake charge before the piston even starts coming down (the piston is passing through TDC during overlap). But, if you hit the chamber during overlap with a positive wave instead, it shoves the fuel charge back out the carb (reversion), which not only screws up cyl fill, but it makes the charge richer. This is what the stock muffler does in the midrange. It's worse on X1's and S3's and probably French M2's because the Lightning cams have more overlap.   Jerome Posted on Saturday, March 02, 2002 - 08:58 pm:        Aaron, thanks for the nice explanation. Would it be complicated to add a tube of varying length to the Force inlet inside the K&N filter and to dyno the result ? It's so impressive to see the amount of work and information you're accumulating on the dyno that we feel more and more hungry of new tests... :-)   Oldman Posted on Saturday, March 02, 2002 - 09:48 pm:        hey aaron, for us mechanically inept can you put that in laymens terms, i work with wood.   Blake Posted on Saturday, March 02, 2002 - 11:12 pm:        Oldman: I think I can translate. A short intake benefits high rpm performance while increased intake length benefits lower rpm performance.   Aaron Posted on Sunday, March 03, 2002 - 09:09 am:        Jerome: anything can be done. Are you not happy with the rpm range where yours is working? Or are you thinking about a system that could change length dynamically? Oldman: looks like you got good running M2. Luck of the draw, me too. An awful lot of them seem to pull 75-76hp, in fact, I'd say the majority of them. I think there's a fair amount of variation in the heads, at least that's what people who know tell me.   Aaron Posted on Saturday, April 06, 2002 - 09:39 pm: