| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
José M., scroll up to Jeff's original post on that thread.  | ||
| Jmartz |
Thanks Blake. Rod wear is usually where they go 1st. Wonder what causes these things? Sometimes I suspect a roller that was manufactured poorly, gets into the mix and you win the lottery. Frequently poor oil circulation is the culprit. With a bike that new it has to have been a manufacturing blunder. These motors are sturdy and mine has tolerated my abuse quite well with relegious maintenance. | ||
| Jeffsd |
Jmartz, you asked the gazillion dollar question. What caused the rod knock? Or more importantly, when the engine is rebuilt, will that cause be corrected? I talked to Pammy last week. She said that her 99 X1 developed a similar problem at 1300 miles. It's been almost two weeks now since the discovery. I'm almost over the shock and anger; I just want my bike back together and ridable. I did not realize how much I depended on by bike as a stress reliever. I live just off of a great road that twists through the foothills of the Tecate Mountains. A quick trip out and back and I'm in a better mood. But my bike quickly went from stress reliver to source of great stress. You know what they say (whoever the hell "they" are); Good things come to those who wait. I'm waiting, but I never said that I was patient. I didn't hear back from John at customer service today. Maybe tomorrow. On the postitive side, I got a lot done around the house this weekend. Jeff | ||
| Jmartz |
Jeff: Someone has to take an oil pump pressure reading. After that checks out a visual inspection of all oil passages with emphasis on the one through the cam cover and into the pinion shaft that supplies the crankpin. If all that seems adequate maybe then a improperly manufactured roller or rod race could be blamed. | ||
| Blake |
Jeff: BCS is usually very responsive, but if 24 hours pass with no reply, definitely give them another call. Keep rattling their cage so to speak. The squeeky wheel gets the grease. Keep them on their toes... and all that. | ||
| Jeffsd |
Blake, once again, you were right. I just got off the phone with John at customer service. He said that BMC will kick in for the parts needed to fix my bike. So, I called the dealer and found out that "The Book" calls for 15.2 hours to rebuild the motor. (15.2 sounds high since Nallin only takes 10) At $64 per hour, that comes out to a grand total of $972.80 just for labor. Too bad BMC didn't offer to pay for labor. Well, Lyle the service writer said that turnaround time depends on their parts inventory. He said expect at least 3 days working on the engine alone. Hopefully parts availability will not be a problem. I asked John at BMC about going with aftermarket parts (Nallin cylinders, pistons and heads). John said "No" in case there was another problem. If the bike is rebuilt to stock specs, if there are any more problems, it will be easier to deal with. So, stock it will be for a few more thousand miles then I'll call Brian Nallin. So, with any luck I'll be in the wind again in a week or so. I'll let you know which parts had to be replaced. Should there be any kind of repair warranty after the engine is rebuilt? If so, will it be on the dealer? Thanks for all the help. Jeff | ||
| Kahuna |
May I ask what are the symptoms of a rod knock? | ||
| Blake |
A loud knocking noise, like someone tapping a hammer on your cases. | ||
| Kahuna |
Thanks Blake, you're great help! I'll try to stop asking too many question, I'm getting my first Buell and I wanna know everything! | ||
| Blake |
Jeff: That's not a very equitable solution in my opinion. What parts need replaced? If it's just a rod and/or wrist pin, that isn't much in the way of $$. Even a new crank is probably not too expensive. Near $1K out of pocket for labor to repair a failure due to a suspected defect is a hard pill to swallow for a bike with under 6000 miles. That's more cash than I like to simply give up on an issue like this. I would certainly ask for the damaged parts prior to agreeing on any payment. You can then have them analyzed to ascertain the cause of the failure. An idea for you to ponder. If you are going to pay near $1K and still plan to Nallinize at a later date, maybe you'd best say no thank you to the paltry free parts and just send it to Mr. Nallin; If you can't get a more equitable solution from Buell, you could kill two birds with one stone, get the repair done AND have a balanced engine with more power. | ||
| Jeffsd |
Blake, the crank assembly is $341. And I agree, 1k is a lot of money to lay out on a bike with low miles for a rod knock. But, BMC is under no LEGAL obligation to help at all. I doubt if parts will be over $500. Trusk me, the motor company will miss $500 a LOT less than I'll miss $1000 at the end of the month when I'm paying bills. The Nallin bill for shipping, labor, gaskets, crank assembly and heads was a small amount under $3000. If I can get the bottom end redone now, put some miles on the bike to be sure the crank is gonna hold, I can redo the top(heads, pistons and cylinders) myself at a later date. I'm trying to get a house ready to sell and will move cross country in about two months. I can't fork out 3 grand right now. I agree with you in that it makes sense to do it all at once, but my wallet can't take the strain. I like the idea of asking for the damamged parts. Where should I send them to be analyzed? The first person that comes to mind is Mr. Nallin. At a time like this I wouldn't mind living in Shreveport, or maybe even east Texas.(ha-ha) Anyone know if a HD dealer gives a warranty on repairs? At least none of my friends who ride imports are giving me grief about my bike being in the shop. (I'm trying to stay positive.) I just got off the phone with John at BCS. He said that the old/broken parts are returned to HD within 30 days and are the property of HD and NO info about the parts will be released to anyone(not even John). Sounds like they have something to hide. He also said that BMC provides a 90 day waranty on the parts but it would be up to the shop as to whether there would be any warranty on workmanship. What a pain. Since I'll be living in another state on the other side of the country in two months, should I have the bike fixed here? And if I do have it fixed here, what if there is a problem? Jeff | ||
| Blake |
Jeff: Thirty days is PLENTY of time for a thorough failure analysis. You might consider contracting for only the teardown before ordering the new parts. You are then only liable for the labor for the teardown and can take posession of the failed parts for analysis. I wouldn't say that "BMC is under no LEGAL obligation to help at all". If you can show that defects or negligent assembly instigated the failure, the law will be on YOUR side. Brian would certainly be able to help in a failure diagnosis; from a legal perspective however, a mechanical engineer experienced in the analysis of bearing failures and well versed in the field of IC engines would be my first choice. Check with your local university's ME dept for a referal. A good collection of high quality photographs and a written description may be all that's needed to get BMC to step up and do what's right. To where are you moving? I'd tend to want the bike to be worked on by the local shop where I live, ESPECIALLY if you will be ANYWHERE places like Modesto, CA or | ||
| Jeffsd |
Blake, I've made some calls and decided to hold off on having the work done until I get moved (South East Georgia). I spoke to Matt at Gainsville (FL) Harley/Buell. I've seen their shop and he said that half of his techs ride Buells. So, I'll be w/o a bike for a few months. I guess I'll live. Sorry I've been out of the loop for 3 days. Now my ISP is not working. IS there a bullseye on my back that I don't know about? Jeff | ||
| Blake |
Run away from that little red lazer dot!!! | ||
| Jeffsd |
Went by the HD shop to let them know that I would pick up the boat anchor (my Buell) early this week as soon as I could line up a truck or trailer to drag it home. So, they hit me with a bill for 2.8 hours of labor!!! How long does it take to get the front head off a Buell? Anyway, when I get the engine done, I'll have them deduct the 2.8 from the 15.2 hours that the book calls for to rebuild the engine. I don't think it would be a good idea for me to get on the "Advice for new Buellers" page right now. Jeff | ||
| Jeffsd |
Well, I bought the old boat anchor home from the dealership. It is in the garage, in front of my car so that no one can see it when the garage door is open. The front cylinder is off so I can reach in and grab the piston and shake it to make the rod knock noise. It'll be like that for a few months. Jeff | ||
| Rapid49 |
I am pulling the heads on my 98s1 to see why I bent a pushrod. I am thinking about the thunderstorm heads and pistons while I have it down and have the money.(I sold my 1100f)Is this the best package for the money? What about aftermarket stuff like edelbrock ,s&s, hemi design etc. ? Would my money be better spent porting the S1 heads with bigger valves ? This is a budget project so what I spend I need to make count. What do you think the used S1 heads might sell for? Any and all advice apreciated . Evan | ||
| Ralph |
Jeff, I have a complete bottom end, flywheels rods and pin if you want it. It's from my S3 and is tight. Just take the motor out yourself and tear it down to the cases and have them put it together with this stuff. You'll be on the road faster and way cheaper. It's not a big deal. Evan, for the money you can't beat the Thunderstorm set up. Some of the after market stuff can work better but it is not the same price range by any stretch. I typically see Lightning heads on ebay go for $250. You can get good results porting the Lightning heads but you'll pay more than the Thunderstorm set up costs. Please post what you find when you pop the bikes top. I have a few ideas but hate shooting in the dark. bighairyralph | ||
| Rapid49 |
I pulled the heads today. I found a stuck bent exhaust valve on the rear cylinder, also the top ring land at the exhaust valve was burnt down to the ring. also the front piston was a flat top and the rear was a slight dome. Which one was the stock one. Could the piston have burnt after the valve bent (had to lose compresion) or did the valve guide gall due to piston material deposited on the valve? The guide was pulled down about 3/4" The # on the heads are 16643-96YA piston # is22673-98YA for the dome and 22650-88B for the flat anybody know these #? Evan | ||
| Rapid49 |
I found a pic on Sport Twins site .The dome piston apears to be a thunderstorm piston. Will that piston fit in a S1 head. I was told that the thunderstorm heads had a larger chamber and needed a bigger piston for compression. Evan | ||
| Kevinhern |
Rapid, is it possible that the dome piston is a thunderstorm piston? Is that the one that had the bent valve? From what I've read on this site, a thunderstorm piston will not work with a lightning head. Maybe the piston hit the valve? | ||
| Jmartz |
Rapid49: What is the history of the bike? Weird! | ||
| Ralph |
The number you gave (22673-98YA) is for the Thunderstorm piston. I think you may have your problem solved. With Lightning heads the compression would be to high for pump gas. So there is your burnt piston (detonation). I'm guessing your valves were really close to the piston in the first place (wrong relief cut in the piston) could be the valves were dancing off the piston the entire time but you didn't hear it. The "high speed" sustained run finally stressed the system enough for the valve to make "good" (nothin' good about it) contact. That would bend the valve and hence the valve guide. This would be a real good time to get the Thunderstorm heads and new pistons. The Lightning rear head is going to be pretty roughed up with the pulled valve guide. Rats, I was wanting one to play with. I've got a set of stock push rods (used but straight) I can give you for a good price. Maybe you can track down the last owner and have "a little talk". Shoot me an email if there's anything I can help with. bighairyralph | ||
| Jeffsd |
BHRalph, You have my attention. I'll ping you. Jeff | ||
| Jeffsd |
Ralph, once again, my ISP, netzero, has its head up its A** so I can not send email. I am interested in your suggestion. I will try to email you from work tomorrow. How much for the hardware? Thanks, Jeff | ||
| Kevinhern |
Does anyone know who manufactures Nallin's Hurricane pistons? Kevin | ||
| M2fast |
I need some help. My engine is blown. I haven't gotten the engine out or apart yet as I'm pretty bummed and have tried to ignore the problem. I am pretty sure my rod/crank bearings let go. The crank and rods are still functioning to some extent but the power is gone and the knock sounds like someone is inside with a hammer. The bike is a 99 M2 with about 15K on it. Anyway, I'm thinking at minimum I will need rods, bearings, crankpin, etc. Can I use the stock flywheels with an S&S rod set? If not are there vendors who offer a balanced and assembled flywheel and rod assembly? While I've got it out I will most likely go to a bigger bore, probably Nallin's 1250 kit with a stage 2 head job. I will also need a set of cams and adjustable pushrods (I already have Jims lifters). I like the torque of the M2 cams in the lower RPM range and am wondering what grind I should go with and which brand would be recommended? Also I am thinking of tackling the rebuild myself. I know I'd have no problem with the top end but am a little apprehensive about the bottom end. Should I go for it or get a shop to do the rebuild? If so, who and where? Any estimate on cost of labor for the rebuild? Thanks for any help, Kris Wyman | ||
| Mikej |
Kris, take things one step at a time. Step one: stop and review. Step two: check the obvious and easy to check things first. Step three: It's easier to remove the primary cover than it is to remove the engine and split the cases. Step four: It's easier to remove the rocker covers and rear cylinder head than it is to remove the engine and split the cases. Step five: It is very difficult to offer advice without knowing the parameters of the failure or apparent failure. First: open up the clutch inspection cover and remove the spark plugs, then see what you can see in there. Some people have had their primary tensioner break, their stators disintegrate, and the thing on the shaft around the stator come loose (I'm brain-fried and the first thing to go is technical terms, sorry). On the other side of the engine people have had lifters collapse, cam bearings/bushings spin, and so forth. These symptoms have happened in Sportsters and in Buells, as well as other bikes with similar components. Bottom line, check the easy stuff first, because you might just be pleasantly surprised, or not. Just some thoughts to consider. bye. | ||
| M2fast |
Mike, Thanks for the advice. The primary is cover is off and unfortunately that's not where the problem is. I actually ran the engine for a brief period with the cover off and the noise is most definately from the bottom end between the cases. My primary tensioner was broken btw, but had not disintegrated. I replaced the lifters because I thought that the knock (very slight at that point) was a deflated lifter. In any case you're absolutely right about removing the rear cylinder components before removing the whole engine. I will be transporting my bike to my shop (I'm a transport refrigeration mechanic)and start a more thourough investigation soon. Thanks, Kris | ||
| Sportyeric |
Hot XL magazine had a couple of rave reviews about Johnson Engine Technologies (JET) in Rhode Island, I believe. The first article was about his porting philosophy (Small valves and high velocity), the second about his lower end blueprinting(and the woeful variances in factory output. Has anyone here had any experiences there? ( My impression is that it is expensive but I can't remember why I think so.) |
