| Author | Message | ||
     Oldfatdaddy |
I'm having similar troubles with my '99 Cyclone. The first time I had a problem was after sitting at an extremely long stoplight in hot weather with the bike idling in nuetral (clutch out). When the light turned I engaged first gear, began to take off and the bike died. It restarted, but the same thing happened when I let out the clutch. Thinking there might be vapor lock from the heat I let the bike cool about 20 minutes before restarting and it ran fine. I thought the problem was overheating. About a month later (and several rides with no problems)the bike died again, in slow stop and go traffic. This time, after letting the bike cool, it would run fine for several miles then just die (even at cruising speed). This repeated itself about 5 times (each time allowing the bike to cool before restarting) then finally ran fine and got me home. Last week, after work, on a cool evening I went for a ride and the bike ran fine for about a half hour (just cruising around town)then quit again while running at 50mph. The bike was not too hot. It would restart, idle, even rev in neutral or with the clutch in. But, when the clutch was engaged the bike would die. Letting it rest a minute then restarting would get me a few hundred yards down the road before repeating. After several tries, the bike ran normally and got me home. I don't want to ride it until I figure out and solve the trouble. | ||
| Blake |
Oldfatdaddy: Been there, done that. Replace your kickstand safety switch. If you are comfortable running without a kickstand safety switch you can simply short it to make the system think it's always up. | ||
| Oldfatdaddy |
Blake: Thanks for the tip, I'll try shorting the switch. | ||
| Geyservillebob |
Someone on the board suggested that changing the timing on my '99 S3T would not really accomplish much since the computer would just put it back to where it was supposed to be. I thought about this and it occurs to me that the bike would need to have two crank position (or CAM position) sensors to do this, one giving absolute crank position and one giving the timing trigger position, for this to be true. Also it seems that many Buell tuners have found some dyno verified horsepower by tweaking the static timing. What is the definitive answer with respect to static timing on DDFI bikes? Does adjusting the static timing actually advance the whole curve or not? Frank | ||
| Aaron |
Do DDFI bikes by the book. The sensor affects more than just the timing, changing it from the designed setting will really mess things up. | ||
| Lsr_Bbs |
On a DDFI bike, I would not deviate from factory timing. The software makes too many assumptions, and this is one of them. It's unclear from the manual EXACTLY what affect, if any, slightly retarding or advancing the timing would have on the DDFI, but I wouldn't do it. Now on a carb bike (both my buell and sportsters)...I've always seemed to make the most power about 3 degrees retarded - ready for the slings and barbs from the peanut gallery  Neil Garretson X0.5 | ||
| Aaron |
Sling! Barb! Playing with the timing while on the dyno is one of my favorite pasttimes. It's so quick and easy to do compared with changing a jet. I have yet to find a bike that ran better when I retarded it from it's correct factory setting. I have seen several bikes now that gained a little on top from advancing the stock timing 1 mark on the timing plate (5 degrees) from the factory position. I first observed this phenomenon when I did this test, but I've seen it on enough other bikes since then to believe it wasn't just a fluke. Given the fact that the race ECM gains this little bit on top without moving the plate, my conclusion is that adding this little bit of advance is essentially taking out the stock module's >6200rpm retard. Doing this trick hasn't caused any significant loss in power at lower rpm's that I've seen. Just a smidgen if you look real close. It hasn't caused any pinging issues up here at 5300', either, although it might at sea level. AW | ||
| Geyservillebob |
Thanks for the words of caution Aaron and Neil, but I'm still don't know if changing the static timing moves the baseline of the advance curve or does the ECM compensate any changes out? Also Aaron, what other things are affected by the sensor position and how can things be messed up by deviations from the factory setting? I guess I'm just not happy with "NO" I need to know why not. Learned that from my kids. Frank | ||
| Ccryder |
Frank: It was me that broached the subject about not messing with the timing on the fuelie Buells. This was based on my experience with a very qualified Technician, with a lot of Buell training, and Buell experience, and from the discussions I had with "Mr. DDFI" Buells DDFI road-man trouble shooter. Does the ECM control the ignition curve? I do not know 100% that it does but my engineer inside me says yes, since DDFI bikes do not have a VOES like the carb'd bikes. I do know that my 00' X-3 ran just fine, albeit some expected power loss, in CO up to 14,000+ ft. The DDFI adjusted timing and mixture to compensate for the changes between Indiana and CO. The DDFI has to know some baseline conditions about the engine and one of those is static timing. It takes for granted that the timing is set per the specs. After that it takes into account, air temp, throttle position, cylinder head temp sensor (00' on up) and the 02 sensor (did I miss a sensor???). So based on this and it's original programing, the ECM adjusts what it needs to make the engine happy. This is where I get confused and I may get this backwards, the ECM operates in an open loop at idle and max rpm/TPS and in between it operates in a closed loop. It is adaptive when you are above a certain RPM/ TPS setting/ but below a max rpm/ tps, and it not only uses it's initial program but adapts to the current conditions. Ok now you know 101% of what I've been told, experienced, and been a part of the collective thoughts of Fuelie BUelligans in this life. Time2Run Neil S. p.s. Do you know why that flight of Geese making that pretty "V" in the sky can never get both legs of the "V" equal?????? The reason is, It just is. Some things due to nature, government, or business, just is. Sad, sometimes but true. | ||
| Aaron |
Frank, The cam position sensor is the ECM's feedback about motor position. It controls more than just ignition timing. It has no way of even knowing that you moved it relative to the engine, so no, it can't automatically readjust to compensate for a misadjusted sensor. I have it on very good authority (same person Neil is referring to) that the majority of DDFI driveability problems are corrected by proper setting of the cam position sensor and zeroing of the TPS. AW | ||
| Geyservillebob |
Ccryder, I remembered where I heard the compensation thing from but I though it best not to say but thanks for coming forward. I believe the open loop Vs. closed loop thing is for the fuel/air ratio and not the timing. As far as I can tell the ECM does indeed adjust the timing from a memory map but the baseline (initial advance) is set by the static timing. I'm really on a knowledge hunt on the base question and I wanted to avoid interjecting my opinion or beliefs too much but... I can't really see what harm offsetting the static timing a few degrees from stock would do. If it can mess things up I'm eager to understand how. PS: You are not seriously suggesting that "because" or "because I said so" or "that's the way it is" is an acceptable answer for a technical question on a Motorcycle. I didn't think so. Sometimes it's a good answer though... No, don't do that... I'm mean it don't! Get your hands off that knob on the TV! It doesn't matter why just don't touch it!!! Damn it get away from there! I don't care WHY your doing it just stop! sound of knob snaping off TV follows Frank | ||
| Geyservillebob |
Thanks Aaron, that makes sense. Frank | ||
| Ccryder |
Frank: I agree with you about finding answers. We should be able to understand the answers to these technical issues. If we can't then we need more education. Even if we can't make a difference in the way our DDFI Buels run because of EPA constraints and product liabilty, I still want to understand. These DDFI systems are complex and there are a lot of things that go into making these bikes run good (Buell and a number of Buelligans found out early on how little changes in the maping can make things real uncomfortable and how procedures need to be followed in order to get a certain outcome). So the bottom line is I don't know what majic makes our fuelie Buells run. In my industry, electric motors, we know that when the smoke gets out, the motors don't run. So it must be the smoke that makes them run. (Go ahead and run with that logic)  Dinner time Neil S. | ||
| José_Quiñones |
Yep, as reiterated by Neil and Aaron, the Static timing (inside the cup) and the TPS must be set correctly for the bike to run smoothly. Neil, 99 bikes have a head temp sensor, but it is down by the rear spark plug. 2000 on Buells stuck the sensor at the top of the rear head. There is a difference, which is why I think 2000 ECM's were not given to 99 owners when everybody was complaining about crappy running bikes when the 2000's came out with "improved DDFI", they got a new Ignition Map instead. | ||
| Lsr_Bbs |
Aaron, that's an interesting observation as I live @ sea level. Any HD motor I've ever tinkered w/ has had (a) problems w/ pinging; and (b) seemed to pick up a bit w/ the timing retarded slightly. Wish I had a dyno in my garage, would thoroughly enjoy some testing to see. But at sea level, all vehicles now-a-days have problems w/ pinging. Even ones w/ knock sensors and whatnot that are suppossed to deal w/ it, don't always. Neil Garretson X0.5 | ||
| Blake |
I'm only 300' ASL. No problems with predetonation as long as my intake seals are performing properly. Neil, is your carb a little lean down low? Mine's nice and fat. | ||
| Peter |
Neil, I live BELOW sea level and don't have any detonation problems. PPiA | ||
| Lsr_Bbs |
I've never had issues w/ pinging on my carbed X1...just w/ the DDFI and sportsters as delivered (which a 45 cleared it right up). At least in this part of Georgia, it is semi-common for vehicles to have detonation issues (though usually minor - I loath detonation though)...course, we might just get second-rate gas from the distributor for all I know. The joys of living in back-water Georgia I guess. Neil Garretson X0.5 | ||
| Jeffx1rs |
I have an X1 with a race kit. I am now putting in a PCII and want to know where to get the "special" O2 sensor mentioned in the instructions. Or, I hear there is an equal that Bosh makes. Where do you go for the Bosh and what do you ask for? I live in the Bay Area. | ||
| Peter |
Jeffx1rs, Ford P/N: F1SZ-9F472-A. PPiA | ||
| Bushmasta |
Anyone else have problems starting their Buell in the cold? Here is what happens, ignition, engine light, lights up for a couple of seconds. i push the start button and it starts up, but the engine come on, almost as if the battery is weak and it turns over. once running the engine light turns off after 2-3 seconds. it nevers does this when its warm outside, or bike is warm. I have tried turning the bike off right after i start it, and it and it will start up and the engine light doesn't come on. only the initial start up when cold outside, does it come on and stay off after starting and flickers while the engine is turning. I know the if the lights stays on after start up is supposed to mean something is afoul but, it never does it warm (engine or outside temp). any similiar problems? ideas? or should i not worry about it? | ||
| Blake |
Bushmasta: A symptom of thick oil hindering buildup of pressure, along with the shrunken tolerances of a cold engine. That's fairly typical behavior, especially if you are using a 20W50 conventional oil. Such behavior is no cause for serious alarm, but if it bothers you enough, you could try running a lower or wider viscosity grade engine oil such as 15W50 or 10W40. I believe that some synthetics are now even available in a 5W50. | ||
| Peter |
Blake, I run a 0W40 Mobil 1 in the BMW in winter here. PPiA | ||
| José_Quiñones |
Jeffx1rs, The O2 sensor that Bosch sells (12014) won't work with the PCIII the same way as the one that they recommend, which is more expensive. Bushmasta, Do you roll the throttle when you start it? I can't get my bike to start by just pushing the starter in cold weather, I have to open the throttle a bit. The light does come on once in a while, but it has never done anything weird, nor does this leave a diagnostic code on the computer. I think that the battery voltage dips lower than the computer would like during a cold start so you get the light. You can also increase the "cold" idle speed, but the problem then is that when the bike is warmed up it idles at around 1100-1200 rpm and it really tries to tear itself appart from the vibration when you are at a stop. Everbody looks at you funny, thinking the bike is having a seizure! Just roll with it...... | ||
| Jeffx1rs |
Jose' How about the Ford f1sz-9f472a or the bosh 13223 superceeded by 15717 being mentioned here. Any knowledge about them? | ||
| José_Quiñones |
Never heard of those! Anybody have any experiences with these? | ||
| Peter |
When you buy the one from Dynotune, it has the Ford number on it. PPiA | ||
| Raticalbuell |
I am looking for suggestions on ignition for my S1 that I am upgrading to Thunderstorm heads (with baisly Valves)and Thunderstorm pistons. I am also putting Red Shift cams. Any suggections? | ||
| Aaron |
How high do you want to twist it? What's your CR? How much overlap in the cams? What's the TDC lift? | ||
| Raticalbuell |
We are not changing the stroke. So I'm not sure what the CR is yet. As for the lift it is a .575. I am not building the motor myself so what I really need is a type of ignition. Power arc? Dyna? Screaming Eagle? Is it worth getting better coil? Do I need to get a different pick up? |
