| Author | Message | ||
     Doncasto |
Note: Copied from Steveshakeshaft's posting on "More Power ..." I'm interested in a "cams thread". I don't see a lot posted anywhere about experiences of the different options. Like, for example, I have been browsing around the cam options at Andrews Crane etc.. web sites. I have lightning cams in my '97 M2, but I don't know the cam timings and lift of the lightning cams, so looking for a cam set with a bit more duration and lift is a bit difficult, when I don't know where I'm starting from! And things like, what effect does fitting a more radical Cam set have on the "effective" compression ratio? Stuff like that. Would you go up from 10:1 to 10.5 or 11:1 or something to compensate for lost compression due to longer duration cams and stuff? Do you run into valve spring binding or valve to valve, valve to piston touching etc ?? An N9 appears to be a nice "hairy" Camshaft, but maybe it is too radical? Opinions and experiences anyone please? Steve http://ukbeg.com/ steve@ukbeg.com | ||
| Rocketman |
Shakey : I run N9's and I wouldn't describe them as "hairy". They give a nice broad spread of power which suits the Buell perfectly. However, IMO, running N9's is not an instant bolt in performance additive you need unless you add some more goodies into the motor to compliment their added benefits. I can't speak of other cams, except I've always thought the Lightning's came with a great set-up from day one, and as you will see on this board, 100RWHP is well within your sights with those stock Lightning cams. Rocket in England | ||
| Steveshakeshaft |
Cheers Rocket. Exactly my point! Looking at the timings/lifts the N9 appears to me a reasonably "warm" or "hairy" as I put it, camshaft set for a road going engine (your comments confirm my thoughts). But, without knowing the timings and lifts of the Lightning cams I have no terms of reference. Do you have those details? My manual doesn't. At the moment, I plan on using some big valve T/storm heads (1.840 in. intake and 1.615 in. exhaust. I can get the valves made over here, but no one else on our forum was interested in a batch job) ported to suit. With either the TS or Wiseco pistons. I also have the pro race filter and a loud exhaust. You using the stock springs and valves? Have you increased the compression ratio? What valve/piston clearances have you got? I have many questions ! Thanks. Steve http://ukbeg.com steve@ukbeg.com | ||
| Aaron |
Lighting cams = N4's | ||
| Steveshakeshaft |
Thanks for that, I now have my "terms of reference". Steve. | ||
| Bullitt |
Aaron - Are the M2 cams the same as stock Sporty cams? While I'm at it, how about a recomendation on replacement cams for engines without internal mods (heads, pistons, etc) - just the usual bolt on stuff. My scoot seems awfully breathless on top but I've hesitated from not wanting to kill off the bottom end. Kevin | ||
| Aaron |
Aaron - Are the M2 cams the same as stock Sporty cams? Yes. Same part numbers in fact. While I'm at it, how about a recomendation on replacement cams for engines without internal mods (heads, pistons, etc) - just the usual bolt on stuff. IMO, as bolt-in's go, the Lightning cams are the best. | ||
| Bullitt |
Thanks! I ride the wheels off my Buell, and didn't want to do anything to it that would compromise good drivabililty in town. Having the torque to get away from traffic lights quickly is nice and I don't want to lose all of it looking for more on top. Plus, knowing that the N4 is the same set as the Lightning means I'm not at the mercy of the H-D dealer to buy a set. | ||
| Aaron |
If you buy them from Andrews, you can send your original cams and your cam cover and they'll sell you a fitted set of N4's for no extra charge. I did this with my S2 and they run very quiet. Or, you can go to these new "high contact ratio" jobs, they run quiet too. | ||
| Sportyeric |
Since the heading includes lifters, and the subject is "hairy" cams, I offer a second hand heads-up. My riding buddy (and second-hand parts supply) uses 597(?) lift cams from Zippers, with Branch heads (don't know the spring pressure) and he discovered that the lifters were wearing out at the sides of the lifters where the roller is, which would shortly have released a cascade of needle bearings into the cam case. Stock replacements lasted less than 10K. Precision made lifters from JIMS fixed the problem but they are hideously expensive. The stock lifters, squeezed between the high cams and the heavy springs, reveal a minor sideways slope that pushes the lifter sideways. Comments from the voices of experience? | ||
| Jmartz |
Sporty: It is pretty obvious when one consider the shape of a cam that side forces on the lifters should be pretty significant. I was concerned when HD eliminated the replaceable lifters in the 5 speed cases back in 1991. I recently looked into a 40,000 + mile motor with 150 lb. seat pressure springs and .555 lift cams. The bores were very round with no play in the lifters. On a visit to S&S we were told that after 100,000 miles motors run nonstop in a test stand would only show significant wear in the lifters. I did not ask but I think they meant the roller portion. Maybe that is the reason for Jim's thick shaft units. Jose | ||
| Roc |
I'm changing cams on my S1 and I'm at the point where I need to check the "cam gear end play" - step 6 on page 3-46. I have the average multi-blade type feeler guages and I'm having trouble managing the guage and seeing what I'm doing. Do I need a feeler guage set with longer blades? My bike has around 13,000 miles on it and the cams are new, am I being anal? Thank you | ||
| Jmartz |
Roc: What is the play .005? If you can't get the feeler blade between the cam and the bushing you could measure the length of each cam with a micrometer caliper and compare those measurements with cams you are installing. HD sells washers in two sizes for this purpose. When I have done this in the past with new factory components the tolerances have been right on the money. Even Jim's rockers had the correct side play and required nothing more than installation. Jose | ||
| Roc |
Jose - thanks for the idea, but the cams are already in. When I try to slide them over, to open the gap I need to measure, they don't seem to move. I put a lot of assembly lube on them. I'll mess with it agian tomorrow. They are SE cams. | ||
| Sportyeric |
Jose. Another factor is that the locating pins on the newer motors (Buell and Sportster) don't recess into the opposite wall, so there is a potential for side movement (and consequent lifter rotation.) He's drilled that out and put longer (older) pins in. It was nearly a catatrophic failure twice and we can't see any reason except the above two possibilities. But I haven't heard this issue addressed here before. | ||
| Sportyeric |
Blake. Can you delete the first paragraph above? I think you should rig my account to automatically delete anything posted after 2am, as it is the witless blathering caused by sleep deprivation. (Witless blathering before 2am is either drug and alcohol induced or a product of my liberal up-bringing and shouldn't be deleted or I'll disappear from the board. Now that I'm awake: Jim's lifters self destructed twice, being stock Harley (Buell) ones. JIM's lifters, which Jim installed to solve the problem are holding up well. The outside of the lifter and the inside of the lifter block bore were fine. The failure of the stock parts was the roller rubbing through the yoke that holds them because manufacturing tolerances leave the rollers a degree or two from perpendicular to the lift. (Jim had them measured at a machinist's. JIM's are spot on and that's worth paying for. The lifters become the weak link when squeezed between high lift cams and heavy valve springs. Anyone going that route should put in longer locating pins,as described above, or inspect their lifters annually, or budget for JIM's as part of the project. And delete the evidence? The Feds won't allow it!  LOL Blake | ||
| Sportyeric |
Thanks Blake. I feel much better now. My reputation as a man of wit and wisdom remains unchanged. | ||
| Roc |
I figured out the cam gear end play measuring problem I was had. I was measuring the correct thing but I was not sure so I posted. I ended up prying the cam away from the bike, inserting the feeler guage - attached to a heleostat - SP? medical locking grabber thing - to get some extra reach, and then prying the cam back the other way. If the feeler guage was pinched then obviously it was in the right spot. Next time I will measure them prior to installation - thanks Jose. | ||
| Roc |
Another question - I'm installing Colony brand adjustable pushrod covers, an exact copy of the OE parts for a 1984 and up big twin evolution engine. I was told that I may have to "file them down a bit" - the spring clips that hold everything in place - in order to get them to fit. The spring clips are currently about 3 and 3/8" long and it looks like they need to be around 2 and 1/8" long. This seems to call for more than filing. Does anyone have experience with this? Is 2 and 1/8" about right for length? What did you use to cut them? - Thanks | ||
| Rippin |
Sent my N-6 cams to Andrews today. They are swapping the driven #2 gear from my stock cam so it will work in my '01 M2. Can't wait to get them back. I got a Pro Series pipe from Santa and $150 at our local HD shop w/Dynojet so I can guarentee(sp) where I'm going as soon as my cams come back. I'll keep ya posted. N-6's made awesome gains on my ol99 but I did not have Pro header just a V&H. Thanks Aaron for the tip. I called Scott at Andrews and said if I paid shipping there would be no charge. Thank you Andrews!! Thank you Aaron!! Ryan | ||
| Roc |
Never mind I figured out the push-rod covers. Cut to just under 2 and 1/8" with a hack saw and then sanded on the edges. Hopefully no leaks. | ||
| Bigun283 |
Question for all you buellers: I have a 98 s1 white lightning. I just ordered the lightning component cams, but now that i looked at the buell site I think these might be stock in my bike. Anyone know for sure? | ||
| Sportyeric |
I think all Buells but the S2 have the same cams, the Lightning ones, same as the Screaming Eagle bolt-ins, with a 497 lift. Those who know for sure may want to confirm or refute that, but I think you should cancel the order and give your dealer shit for letting you order them. | ||
| Tripper |
Since 1998, the S1 and S3 have the "Lightning" cams. The M2 are milder. Cancel the order. | ||
| Aaron |
Part number for a replacement set of cams for an S1/S1W: 25648-91 (from the parts book) Part number for a set of Lightning component cams: 25648-91 (from the P&A catalog). I think they might be the same. M2's & S2's use plain jane XLH1200 cams. | ||
| Blake |
Bigun: One question, one topic okay? For SportyEric....................... Producing prodigious torque Same cams as Sportster | ||
| Road_Thing |
S1 cams good, too! At top end of power band They pull my arms straight. road_thing (I apologize, Blake, but I'm crazy about These haiku thingies!) | ||
| Steveshakeshaft |
For the record, us Europeans with M2's get the Lightning cams as standard too. Steve http://ukbeg.com steve@ukbeg.com | ||
| Sportyeric |
I stand corrected. Yes. S1 cams really rock. Perfect powerband! | ||
| Jmartz |
SEII's are also Ok if you bump the compression to recover a bit of low end weakness. They really excell above 4000. Head porting helps also. |
