| Author | Message | ||
     Iamike |
I wonder about that too. We helped refurbish a house for Habitat For Humanity a couple of years ago. When the family moved in the guy also had a new Harley. It kind of ruffled some feathers when we looked at all the free time we gave a supposed needy family, yet he had an expensive cycle. I'm curious if he still has it or if they still live there. That was the one thing I liked about Habitat was they worked on responsibility for their clients instead of just giving it away. | ||
| Concor |
So stock finished today at 11 bucks and change. Two years ago it was 72 bucks and change. Good time to buy? You assume long term Harley will be fine and the stock should rebound nicely at some point. I am very tempted, maybe throw down a couple grand. | ||
| Spatten1 |
I don't know who Harley's next market is. If they can revive the European lust for all things American, they are good to go. Here in the US, I think the jig is about up for the MoCo. It's mostly a really old crowd riding new Harleys where I live. I don't know a lot of guys my age (40's) that have the dream about riding around in a costume from bar to bar. Even those of us that want a Harley, myself included, would never pay anything close to what they sell for. I don't see the value proposition. I'm not saying HD doesn't build high quality cruisers. I'm just saying that the crowd willing to pay nearly $20k for them is going away. BMW has been much more proactive about revising their image for the younger consumer than Harley has been. They have the new 800 and the full-competition world superbike effort. Also, the American consumer can't buy things that they can't afford now. People with •••••• credit aren't getting easy loans. Harleys are expensive, very much a luxury item, not a practical transportation purchase. Shit, an all-wheel drive Subaru is about the same price. Buying something that you want, but can't afford, was easy for the last 20 years, but that era may be over for a long time. | ||
| Spatten1 |
BTW, pretty soon it may be time for me to start pricing a used Road King. That's a bike I would love to ride cross country. But I sure as hell ain't gonna pay $18,000 for the thing. I'd get the V-Max for the same dough. | ||
| Svh |
I think that is part of Harley's issue. A 1980 H-D looks similar to a 2009 H-D. So why would a consumer buy a 09 when they can buy a 98 for less $$$ and looks damn near exactly the same. I know there are differences but you take a 1980 fill in a make pickup and it sure looks a lot different than a 2009 pickup. | ||
| Chellem |
I think that is part of Harley's issue. A 1980 H-D looks similar to a 2009 H-D. So why would a consumer buy a 09 when they can buy a 98 for less $$$ and looks damn near exactly the same. I know there are differences but you take a 1980 fill in a make pickup and it sure looks a lot different than a 2009 pickup. A few years ago Harley finally released the V-Rod, a Revolutionary (pardon the pun) new liquid-cooled motorcycle - that looks MUCH different from a 1980 FL-Anything. And how did people react? They said it wasn't a REAL Harley. The "real" bikers ridiculed it, and accused Harley of pandering to some yuppy market, or the EPA, or the Japanese riding customers, etc. etc. etc. Harley has been trying for YEARS to walk the line, keeping potential new customers interested while not losing the "real" biker market. What, exactly, should they have done? They try something new, they're mocked. They don't change anything, they're mocked. And yet, they've somehow managed to survive 105 years, including depressions, recessions, and all the other mood swings of the economy. When things got really good, they started trying to get their dealers to go a little upscale, to grab some new customers. And then people complained that they were ignoring their core customers. This is one of the worst examples of damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't. So now they're downsizing, and trying to get back to basics. They've been through worse than this - and I think (and hope!) that they'll maneuver their way through this. ->ChelleM | ||
| Dick8008 |
Would they sell Buell off or would Buell go out on it's own again? Only use H-D as contractors? Buell would then be free to use other suppliers and such.... | ||
| Teddagreek |
I'm not big on late model Harleys.. If Victory hadn't Stirred the pot they'd still have the same motors and 5 speeds.. Buell's making money, They're not going anywhere.. | ||
| Dynasport |
I don't think the Harley future is nearly as dismal as some here. I am 45, but I have friends from 25 to 65. It seems like all of them who are interested in motorcycles want a Harley. You guys may hate them and everyone who doesn't own one may make fun of them, but deep down almost everyone who rides a cruiser would like to ride a Harley. The reason most cruiser riders ride something besides a Harley is price. I do have one friend who is an exception. He has a Concours 14 and a Nomad. He is looking to replace his Nomad with a bagger with a fairing. The Electra Glide is basically the bike he wants, but he refuses to even look at a HD. Not because of horsepower or handling or weight, he just doesn't like the Harley mentality thing. The funny thing is, when he rides his Nomad he looks just like the typical Harley rider. Leather jacket, no helmet or beanie helmet, leather vest, etc. I guess my point is that many people still want Harleys and will buy them when they can afford them. When the economy is better and more people can afford them they will buy them. I have one friend who was all set to get a Harley this year and ended up with a Honda VTX1300 because his 401k tanked and he didn't get the bonus he normally does. I can guarantee that when he has a good year the VTX is gone and a Harley will be in his garage. | ||
| M2nc |
If you take a look at the latest comparisons of cruisers where a Harley is involved, it either wins or comes in second. When the V-rod was compared to the Hammer and M109R, the V-rod won because it matched the M109R in straight line performance (Consider the engine displacement difference), yet out handled and outmaneuvered the other two. When the '08 Road King was compared to a half a dozen other baggers it came in second though a minority of editors voted it best. The editors chief complaint was the Harley's lack of horsepower. Most editors called the Road King a real size motorcycle because most of the competition (VTX1800C, Kawi 2000, Triumph Rocket Three T, C109T, one of the Star cruisers and the Moto Guzzi California) weighed 100# or more than the Harley. Only the Moto Guzzi California was lighter. On the twisties in that group the Moto Guzzi was top and the Harley was second (follow Ferris down a mountain road sometime). Considering the test ride I took on an '09 Road King, it may come close to toppling the Guzzi in handling. The overall winner was the new big bagger from Triumph, and that was all horsepower and some comfort. In summary, in their class Harleys are still the benchmark. I believe their business will recover in time. Today there is a definite shift away from cruisers in general so maybe 2007 is a peak, but I see demand for Harleys for a long time to come. And who knows, maybe in the future Cruiser will be in again like bell bottoms, fashion trends come and go. The present financial situation is just terrible. In some markets we have seen the sharpest decline in demand in history and that is something that will make things a lot worse if things do not change soon. It's not the overall decline that is startling but the rate of decline. US unemployment has gone from the 4% range to 7% range in a relatively short time. Many of those still employed fear they will be next. Couple that with tight lending policies and falling home prices, and we have some time to go to ride this storm out. I believe it will be a very tough next six months, only to level off and maybe start to rebound mid-summer as the initial shock of the shrinking economy wears off. | ||
| Macdiver |
To lessen the impact of this recession, the motorcycle industry should try to shift the image of motorcycling in America from a toy to affordable transportation. The credit crunch will make bike sales more difficult, but a new market and attitude towards motorcycling could help sales overall. Buell may be in a better position to do this with the blast, cityx, and uly. The HD baggers can make good commuters as well but are a little pricey. A guy I work with commutes on his dyna most days. Even with the cost of maintenance and cost of the bike, the cost to commute should be less when compared to the SUV that the average american drives. There is a recent post on the XB board and in the classifieds where the person is selling his lightning because of no time to ride. This is part of the problem with motorcycles in America. Riding is reserved for weekend canyon rides or poker runs. If you enjoy riding, why not ride everyday? Sure the commute can be boring but it is still riding. I also believe that if more people commuted on bikes, safety would be improved. There would be less cars on the road to run you over and motorcycles would be more visible. | ||
| Chellem |
I agree 100% with the commuting thing. Especially when gas prices got high. Even set up a section of our website for information about commuting. Honestly, except for the coldest 2 or 3 months, riding is a viable option for the NJ area. It's hard to change the weekends-only mentality. ->ChelleM | ||
| Ratbuell |
Even set up a section of our website for information about commuting. What a great idea...may I borrow it?  I commute on my bike any day there's not accumulated snow or ice on the roads. Monday, I rode to work in the AM figuring "bah, they're wrong...it won't snow". Whoops, heheh...hitched a ride home in a cage that night. <shrug> But I do agree, and try to communicate it to any of my customers, that a motorcycle is a *vehicle*, not just a status symbol or garage bling. They look at me funny when I say "they really don't melt if they get wet"...then I walk them outside to where my Uly is dripping salt and mud in its parking space, and they look at me *really* funny. But lots of times it gets through. I do agree that the industry needs to change its focus. Whether or not HD and other manufacturers want to lose that "status" association of selling expensive toys, I think they're going to have to do it. It's an easy swing from "status toy" to "quality product", especially if your product is everywhere, being used on a daily basis. | ||
| Chellem |
Borrow away - the more the merrier I say. It's still up on our site. Not all of it, but the basic FAQ and a gas mileage calculator that I wrote. Well, heavily modified.  A bunch of dealers already "borrowed" my mileage calculator - it went around a string of inter-dealer emails via district managers last year. http://www.libertyharley.com/sales/faq.htm ->ChelleM | ||
| Ratbuell |
Yep, our webhead put a mileage calc on there a while back. It was like pulling teeth to get the logo re-done to get away from the black/orange, obviously HD-geared text and layout design I'll check it out and see where I can take it for our area. If I come up with anything earth-shattering, I'll definitely LYK, thanks! | ||
| Court |
I walk to work 3 days a week and am really enjoying it . . . about 16,000 steps. Buell has already been affected in a big, but not very obvious way. I take exception the anonymous post. Buell is in great shape. There are tremendous opportunities evolving at present. Some will act and seize those opportunities, others will opine their lack of access. Life goes on. | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Court, I have to agree with your statement in another thread last week. Buell MUST begin marketing and merchandising outside of the box if they want sales to remain constant or even grow in a down market. The posters, t-shirts marketing blurbs and commercial clips MUST break out of the current mold. The HD/Lifestyle focus of the current marketing team isn't cutting it. (like you said, they are from HD and doing their stint at Buell.... Don't make any mistakes...) Buell riders and FUTURE customers are not the same as a HD client and NEVER will be. I'll bet that in very short order we here at BWB could come up with a list of accessories and t-shirt ideas that would double their current sales in those areas. I haven't bought a Buell t-shirt for 3 years... they suck! Bland, bla bla bla, boring.. How about a little viral marketing on the web? Some "unauthorized" commercials with a bit of edge to them made by nonprofessional enthusiasts. Or at least go for some ideas from "non-professionals". Get the hell out of the box and dump the boring! Brad | ||
| Moxnix |
When gas was way up, great hordes of scooters appeared on the streets of the metro area, some rather poorly controlled, some piloted by people wearing bike helmets, and some were the type of motor scooter that claps out after six months with no parts or service support back at the sidewalk showroom. Still, the market spoke. H-D has experienced a number of economy downturns in the last century plus. I will not promise them another hundred years, but who knows. Buell may well benefit from our new administration's gyrations toward Smoot-Hawley. My very first motorcycle was a 1965 BMW R69S with Steib TR500 hack, back when the spare would fit any of the three needed places. Purchased in winter, first bike ride being 35 miles home in the snow. Dandy commuter for college and a job with a now defunct defense contractor. Quick! Tell Erik to shop such a delightful machine to the growing band of neo-Bohemians! Walking works good. Metaphysical AND physical excercise. One size fits all. Over a year ago, sensing fuel issues and medical needs of an offspring, we sold the 4 bd/ 3 bath digs and relocated to a modest house in a good area of the city. I'm old, so it's paid for, just as yours will be when you get to my age. Shopping, bus or metrolink, library, hip and not so hip food and entertainment all within hoofing distance. I'm skeptical and optimistic, depending on which direction one is looking. Some folks did very well in the 1930s. Can today for that matter. I plan to do well. Daniel Pink's book on the workings of the mind tells us that among the things that contribute to happiness are engaging in satisfying work, avoiding negative events and emotions, being married, and having a rich social network (BadWeb?). Also important are gratitude, forgiveness and OPTIMISM! Feets, don't fail . . . . | ||
| Paw |
Hey, I did MY part! I BOUGHT a brand new Buell in the fourth quarter! What about the rest of you slackers?? I bought mine in the 3rd quarter. | ||
| Alchemy |
HD has stock or can buy stock at the current price of around 10-12 dollars/share. HD could put forth a promotion where with the purchase of a new motorcycle the purchaser got 50 shares of stock. In essence a $600 discount but without lowering the list price. Call it the "Buy American and invest in America" program. I would double it (100 shrs) to honor the service of any recent active duty service veteran buying a bike. I bet those certificates would be held for a long time and it would introduce a new generation of veterans to HD in a very respectful manner. Just one idea and there are surely lots of others far better. | ||
| Buellgrrrl |
"Chelle and others, you're right on about encouraging commuting. Had a discussion the other day with a laid off (and ticked off!) Harley tech the other day. Not only have new bike sales tanked at the dealership he worked at, but the service work dropped just as much. Why? The average Harley buyer sees their Harley as entertainment, and when times are tight they cut back on spending on entertainment, in this case their Harley. The commuter sees things differently- when the economy is down, they ride more to save money. And when you're unemployed, a bike and a bit of camping gear can allow you to take advantage of the dismal circumstances. That's the kind of customer dealers need to embrace instead of shoo out the door. BTW, the Harley tech was an old timer with all the HD and Buell certifications- but the cheap dealer laid him and the other experienced techs off first and kept the newbies who make less money. | ||
| Court |
>>>How about a little viral marketing on the web? I've already got two Buell campaigns story boarded. | ||
| Clutchless |
Bottom line is: H-D as a company is very sensitive to financial downfall. This is mearly a strike against it. Even if it is cutting off your own arm to feed your self (its nowhere's near that point but had to make an obvious analogy for others...) This most likely is going hand in hand with the motor co.'s aim to strengthin the dealership network with better communication/customer services. Cant continue to improve things while loosing assets. Beleive it or not they know what things we dont like about the consumer process of taking a repair bill, or even the entire bike, up the anal cavity and are trying to lessen the pain. People that want h-d's or buells gotta have them, they gotta cut jobs to continue producing. So in turn bla blah supply demand. Buell doesnt hurt nor does it bounce up and down, definately watches from afar and notes the actions and reactions. quality not quantity. Buell has no problem with that. neither does h-d anymore in all honesty. and with such a strong base buyer group for harley's (and buell's) I dont see them taking a hit from this news only weathering the storm. but who am I anyways.... P.S. just saw a funny bumper sticker today on the way home from work..."Tired of being broke? BUY AMERICAN!" I think that is very appropriate | ||
| Paint_shaker |
Not all Buell riders and FUTURE customers are the same as an HD client and some NEVER will be. There, fixed that for ya!  I bought my first Buell because of it's affiliation with Harley. If Buell did not exist today, I'd still be on my Harley. But I sold my Harely so I could get another Buell. I will own a Harley again someday and it will be an EVO model. I quess I am one of the few who likes Buells AND Harleys!! | ||
| Chellem |
I quess I am one of the few who likes Buells AND Harleys!! Naaaa...you're just one of the few who will admit it!! ->ChelleM (Also likes both.) | ||
| Crusty |
There are quite a few of us who like both Buells and H-Ds. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
I like my Harley, its the bike I always wanted. I LOVE my Buell, it is the bike that I cant get out of my brain every damn waking moment of the day, and it invades my dreams more often than not. Looks like I left on a high side. Harley will do what Harley has always done, a BIG portion of their market is building bikes based on historical prestige and style. They will continue to ad copy and train they way they have always done. I did enjoy working for the shop, I just got tired of feeling like a squared peg in round hole. I like fast fun bikes, I love riding off pavement, I just got tired of trying to explain it to a crowd that didnt get it. | ||
| Just_ziptab |
I don't think "the commuter thing" would pencil out on the bottom line for the years.....to buy a Harley,solely as a fuel saving effort. The interest on a loan would more than make up any fuel cost to drive a cage at 18 MPG, compared to a Harley at even 50 MPG. Let alone the payments of the principle......but I ride my Buells as often as possible to save on gas. If you figure a fixed amount you could spend a year in "total" commuter costs of your current commuter and fuel price,you can not trade up to a better MPG vehicle and come out ahead. | ||
| Chellem |
It depends on what kind of Harley you want. That's why I built the MPG savings calculator on the website. Of course, it was a greater savings when the gas prices were outrageous as opposed to just offensive, but as the gas prices creep up again, we'll see. Here's a sample: If your current car gets 18MPG, and gas costs $2.50, and you travel 50 miles a day, then your average savings on a Sportster model as opposed to your car would be approx. $110/mo. If gas goes up to $3.00 again, the savings is approx. $130/mo. That could be the bulk of a payment, depending on the myriad of factors that go into the calculation of a payment. According to h-d.com, I can get onto a sportster 1200 for about $151/mo. (yes, money down, blah blah. Of course, in a year I can trade up and still get my MSRP back! ) I'm just saying, until you sit down and do the math with your particular situation, you don't know what your savings would be. I think a lot of people would be surprised if they took the time to calculate it. Me? I walk to work. Not much savings for me. Oh well. ->ChelleM | ||
| Doerman |
Marketing to a potential Buell customer is not an easy task if one is to extrapolate from the current crop of owners. I’ll get back to that, bear with me for a moment. Have you ever gone through the drawer in the workbench where you collect all the nuts and bolts over the years with the goal to sort things out? Invariably, you’ll end up with a few piles of similar bolts and a relatively small pile of things you have no idea where they came from or what they were for. That about sums up the Buell owners. It’s a small group and God only knows if there’s any commonalities in the group. I went to a Ducati party Friday night. Nicky Hayden visited the local Duc store and it was quite the soiree. The folks there had a lot more in common than what I have found at Buell gatherings. So the task at hand is easy: Marketing to non-conformists with diverse interests, representing all age groups and coming from all demographics |
