| Author | Message | ||
     Scooterroid  |
Would some of you more experienced road and track riders kindly share some tips and techniques on cornering; things like braking, weight distribution and body position, acceleration, line of sight, etc. Thanks Steve-O | ||
| Aldaytona  |
Scooterroid, do yourself a huge favor and get Keith Code's TWIST OF THE WRIST series. You'll like them. Everyone I know who did picked up a lot of useful information. | ||
| M1combat  |
I'll second that opinion and add "Total Control" by Lee Parks. | ||
| Vikingdave  |
King Kenny Roberts book is also very good. | ||
| Slaughter  |
On thing I'd add - FORGET what everybody says about trail braking, shifting or changing body position in turns, all that BS... it only messes you up. Sure once you're comfortable turning REALLY quick, you can start modifying your style. ...but... While you're learning the bike - forgive the "Zen" - becoming one with your machine... set up your turn BEFORE you get there. While you are still upright, do your braking and downshifting and hanging off BEFORE turning in. Don't do anything to upset the bike in the middle of the turn until you roll on the throttle. We've got a wide powerband in these beasties- and can use it. Also, have faith in the bike - it'll corner a lot quicker than your mind will let you believe (assuming you have setup the suspension properly) | ||
| Slaughter |
Oh forgot - line of sight! Where you look... there you go. Get in the habit of looking through and beyond the turns. FORCE yourself to look beyond things you perceive as threats - you'll either run right over them OR you'll miss what comes next. Try setting up for your turn, looking THROUGH the turn, start a gradual roll-on about mid-turn (IF the road ahead calls for acceleration) We have one fun section at Willow Springs where turn 4 is a right, 5 is a left. You can tap the brakes coming out of 4 and the natural tendency of the bike to stand up actually helps quicken the entry into 5. Think smooooth until you are consistently comfy. My coach told me to forget about speed, try for consistency. Speed would follow. On the track, I try to get every lap within half second of each other before I try changing something. Otherwise I won't know if it's having a good or bad effect. We have a couple guys here who set up 2 lap timers on one of our local roads and do pretty much the same thing. Problem is, their tickets are about 3 times the cost of a track day. | ||
| M1combat |
"While you're learning the bike - forgive the "Zen" - becoming one with your machine... set up your turn BEFORE you get there. While you are still upright, do your braking and downshifting and hanging off BEFORE turning in." Agreed... And this is what Lee Parks preaches. On the "faith in the bike" note... yeah. I'm no racer/pro/really any good but I've had my 12R leaned WAY over and it never does anything even remotely funny at all. Remember... You go where you look. Look far ahead and NEVER glance at that outside guard rail that seems to want to suck you in and eat you alive at 80. | ||
| M1combat |
Oh yeah... "Practice makes permanent." Practice does NOT make perfect. You'll just be doing things perfectly wrong all the time if you don't practice properly from the get go. | ||
| Slaughter |
Wot M1 sed! If you can get to a track day where they offer on-track coaching, and ASK FOR HELP - do so NOW before you develop bad habits. Pridmore told my girlfriend (she had only been on bikes for a total of maybe 1000 miles) - that they wished more people would hit the track BEFORE they put on too many miles so they don't have bad habits to break. Many track day operations have on-track instruction - Sportbike Track Time, Fastrack Riders to name 2. | ||
| Outrider  |
Slaughter...The CHP is the reason we used to use radios on the Ortega and the Crest. By the time they broke the code, we were off to another section of tarmac in the surrounding canyons. Have heard from friends that the trick doesn't work as well as it used to. Hmmm...perhaps should investigate radio scramblers, eh? | ||
| Blake |
Steve (Scooteroid), Are you interested in street riding or track riding technique. They are by necessity very very different.  | ||
| Scooterroid |
I suppose specifically I am interested in proper form (technique) in approach, maintaining speed and accelerating out of a curve. I would assume, perhaps incorrectly, that both road and track have some commonality in the basics. Riding the Buell is quite different from the Road king, obviously. It would be nice to at least start taking advantage of the Buell's cornering characteristics. But I've found that I'm less confident since I've been on the Buell especially in blind curves where line of sight is limited. I'm not really use to the quick response and light weight of the bike. I have experienced some rather un-nerving bumps in the middle of some curves so I know my suspension is not dialed in. Also, unfortunately I don't have a lot of good roads to get in tune with the bike in this neck of the woods. Roads here are straight and flat. That makes it much more difficult to get good experience. I am still very much getting use this bike. Anyone can lean over in a curve. I just wanna do it right. As well, I wanted to get some input from some of the more experienced riders and find out what they thought on the subject. | ||
| Gearhead |
The two main habits I had to break were target fixation and riding flat footed. Several folks have commented on looking through the turns and they are very correct!! This is something that must be practiced at every opportunity to make it automatic. Get your toes up on the pegs, too. It's amazing how much more responsive the bike becomes when you do this! I learned this from reading "Sportbike Riding Techniques" and use it at every corner, even slow speed ones in town. Pick up the book mentioned above at Barnes and Nobles, it's an easy read and will REALLY help your riding!! | ||
| Keith  |
Steve, As the guys have suggested, time on the track with a coach most likely will be time well spent. After riding Harleys for over a decade and 100,000 plus miles, I found that I did not have a clue what a motorcycle was capable of. I hope to never find out, but I know I have a better chance of avoiding an accident on the street because of my track time. Keith | ||
| M1combat |
Total Control suggests numerous drills that you can perform in a parking lot (find an abandoned one, but sweep it first or at least find a clean area ). I don't remember who it was, but there was a thread entitled something like "Thanks M1Combat" quite a while ago. I had suggested the "Twist of the Wrist" and "Total Control" books to someone. They had been practicing the techniques in a parking lot and evidently this saved their life when a cage decided to slow down and make a U-Turn in front of them. Those techniques saved my bike and me a trip over the trunk of a car one day as well. They also saved me from rear-ending a red Ford at about 75 (he was stopped). I was giving the wave to a few other bikes that were going by and looked forward and saw a big red pickup stopped about 40-60' in front of me. With one hand I hit the front brakes and dove to the right onto the shoulder. About that time I got my other hand back on the bars and all was good... HUGE pucker factor. I missed that bumper by about 10". | ||
| Blake |
"I would assume, perhaps incorrectly, that both road and track have some commonality in the basics." Of course they have "some" common aspects, but they are few and far between as even the goals are completely different. Sounds like you are interested in developing your sportbike road riding prowess. The following are from my own experience, I was in your same situation not too long ago. Before even getting into bike handling, let's review gear. The right gear made a HUGE difference for me as follows... A good, quite, comfortable full face helmet. I like the Shoei models, but that is just personal preference. Anything with a good scratch resistant windshield and good sealing for a quite ride. In addition, the NOJ Quite Rider neck closeout GREATLY reduced wind noise. Ear plugs are good too. I use the disposable pink foam ones that you can get at Walmart. A form fitting armored jacket is a must. Anything that is thin and or flaps in the wind is a distraction. Ditto for riding pants. Good gauntlet sport riding gloves that fit well, not too loose. A good pair of lightweight sport riding boots will have an amazing effect on how comfortable you feel moving around on the bike. I started out wearing the lineman style zip-up boots. When I switched to a pair of Joe Rocket Ballistic boots the difference was amazing. I finally felt at one with the bike. Okay so our gear is good to go and fits the mission upon which we are intending to engage. Before we hit the curves, lets check to see if the bike is set up optimally for battle. Ensure that your controls are all optimally oriented within their range of adjustment. The clutch lever espicially is almost always in a position that is too far up causing the rider to reach up and over to actuate it. This can raise havock with the tendons in the wrist. Position the clutch and front brake levers as close to being inline with your forearm and the handlebar as possible, even a bit under the axis so defined by your forearm and the handlebar. Next check the shifter. You are going to be riding with your new slim trim sport riding boots, so you may need to move the shift lever position down a bit in order to allow good upshifting ergonomic action. Keep it located as far up as possible though; if too low, you will catch a toe during upshits while leaned over hard left. That can be VERY disconcerting. Check tire pressures and suspension settings. Okay, TIME TO RIDE TO LEAN!!!  Let's start out not even using the brake if at all possible when coming into a turn. I rarely need to actuate the brake coming into a turn on the road. I don't go around at triple digits much either. If that is what you are looking for, you best take it to the track. So anyway we are cruising along and are approaching a right-hander, the most oft blind turn encountered. We are not riding on a race track, we are in no hurry to get somewhere, we are out to enjoy the road and the handling and leaning of our badass American Sport Bike. So I keep to the lefthand third of my lane. I pretend that is the green zone, the middle third is the orange/caution zone, and the areas of the road's edge and over the centerline are the red/death zones. Avoid them if at all possible if you wish to live. That's my philosophy. It allows me to ride agressively but still have room for error/escape. So what do we do with the bike, the throttle, the gearshift? I try to enter the turn in the gear that will work best upon exit, one that will be in the grunt zone. I like accelerating hard out of a good turn. Otherwise it's not so vital to be in the gear of optimum grunt. Downshifting you want to be pulling in the clutch, then blipping the throttle while quickly/simultaneoulsy downshifting and quickly/smoothly letting out the clutch. This might take some practice. I do it most times when downshifting, even when coming to a stop sign or light just to stay in good practice. I like the way the engine sounds too. Okay, so we are coming to the turn-in point, now what? Balls of feet on pegs? Check. Arms up and elbows out for added stability? Check. I like to lean forward and in towards the curve concurrently with a smooth countersteering input, turning the handlebars away from the turn in order to get the bike leaned. Those two motions/actions complement each other. I never have understood the arguement over whether one countersteers by pushing with the inside arm or pulling with the outside arm. Frankly it doesn't matter. Just turn the bars away from the turn is all that matters. Personally, with the way my bikes ergonomics are set up to be fairly neutral, I simultaneously push and pull as applicable with both arms. It really shouldn't be something that occupies your mind. The countersteering and leaning in and forward should develop into a natural act just like saying the word "counter-steering". You don't need to think about it, you simply say it/do it. You know... "Just do it." Look THROUGH the turn, way out ahead. When you can get used to looking through the turn, you will not notice the lean angle so much and you will begin to really get a feel for what the bike is doing. As the g-force builds you know you are pushing the envelope. Don't freak out to much when a peg first scrapes pavement. The rest should come fairly naturally and the amount of lean is up to you and how fast you are negotiating a particular turn. A track day will give you a good idea of what the bike is capable of. Rule one is to never push it beyond your comfort point. Take it slow and steady. You will get faster as you get used to the bike and the track. You'll then have more confidence and capability on the road too. Or come on down to Kilgore and I'll give you a ride around the track on the back of my Cyclone. Keith sure enjoyed that. Be careful. The road is a dangerous place with all the debris, critters, and cagers out to get you. Those blind turns are best negotiated at a speed that will allow you enough time/space to stop within your line of sight. Ride to lean. (who said that?)  | ||
| U4euh |
What Blake said. I would only add this( and someone else above also) Find an empty parking lot, make sure it is clean of any debris. take about four or five aluminum cans and mark off a circle about 20-25 feet wide. Start of nice and slow, staying inside the circle. Then gradually increase your speed a small step at a time. Then try figure eights, again slowly increasing speed. This technique WILL NOT teach you how to take curves, Blake did a pretty good job of that. However by practicing this technique you will become familiar with how your bike reacts under different inputs from you. After you have tried a bit, then try moving your position around in the seat( maybe hanging off or leaning more towards the direction you are turning. I do this with every new bike I ride, also taught this to my brother, and we both still feel that it is an important step in getting to know your bike. Your choice of a bike will also help you alot! The XB's ergonomics in a curve are outstanding. The bike sticks it in a curve. I have had two situations arrive since riding the Buell. One riding one up going through a blind curve and meeting granpa inching out of his drive-way. Having 20 years two wheel experience, I knew what to do, but the reaction of the bike was shocking. Found myself actually with over-inputs and had to correct myself. The second was with my wife going into a corner a bit"hot". Just pushed it down a little more, heard some scraping, heard the wife, heard the bike scream for more! Dropped a gear and pulled outta the curve like a scalded cat. My whole point is- get to know the bike you are on. Start off slow and work up from there. I am not however trying to put down anyone's riding skill. You on a road king, you already know how to ride, just gotta get used to a new riding style, and different it is. | ||
| Geoffg  |
The only thing I have to add to Blake's description is this: keep your eyes level. Most riders do this without thinking about it, but I have seen some guys cornering with their necks straight and helmets tilted over, and that really does things to your perception. Look at the pros--they keep their helmets as parallel to the horizon as they can. | ||
| M1combat |
Good call Geoff. | ||
| Outrider |
Dang, Blake...You just gave almost all my secrets away. Hopefully, everyone will ignore your post and us old guys can still keep ahead of the "young and bulletproof." | ||
| Sarodude |
The following may seem obvious but I'm gonna say it: If you have to make even the tiniest of corrections, you made a mistake. That's OK. Just keep in mind that it happened and that next time in that turn or situation, you need to do something differently. This goes pretty well along with Blake's comments on zones but I may think slightly differently about a couple of things. If you're gonna bust the safe zone (but can perceive that it won't be unsafe), BUST IT. Let the mistake in the choreography of your line / riding show what was gonna happen. Again, only if it's safe. Just do it better next time. I'm not saying don't correct. I'm saying that you must be conscious of any corrections you forced yourself to make. Oh, I don't find much difference between engine braking and using your brakes (not that there's no difference from the physics of it & the results) but SLOWING DOWN IS SLOWING DOWN. If you NEEDED to slow unexpectedly....... I believe in engaging the brake just enough to at least turn on the brake light. Neither your line nor whoever is behind you care how you slow but that you are slowing. Your tires and bike, however, may beg to differ. Don't try to be fast. Just be good. Fast is a silly notion that fools most people's good judgement and perceptions. Make sure your level of capability is NEVER under you comfort zone. They need to grow together. Staying in your comfort zone helps you to stay relaxed which in turn allows two things. 1) The bike works better (the steering / chassis geometry isn't fighting fighting an overly tight upper body / amrs / hands). 2) You're more able to talk to the bike (or whatever vehicle). There are SO many things SO many people overlook 'cause they're caught up in perpetual Damage Control mode. Relax. Do what the bike wants & it'll do what you want. Ask nicely and listen. It talks. You just need to understand its language. Anyway, just be patient and ride for yourself - not the buddy you're trying to keep up with, lose, impress..... -Saro | ||
| Bonesbuell  |
This site has great tips.... http://www.msgroup.org/DISCUSS.asp (Message edited by bonesbuell on December 22, 2004) | ||
| Hardcorps |
Nobody mentioned switching the stock tires? I thought from previous post that a lot of people had issues with turning and the stock tires? Hard Corps | ||
| Starter  |
Relax, drop your inside shoulder to induce countersteer and lean in nice and gently looking as far through the corner as possible. A quick dab on the rear brake will give you a tighter line and front braking should be done with before leaning. My favourite part on the handling of the XB is the fact they are way over tyred for the rear so you can get on the steam as soon as you near the apex without too much fear of stepping it out. | ||
| Maxima4xu2 |
like wise on the tired in the rear thing but i went to other brand tires (a couple to be exact) and honestly i think the bike handled beter with the dunlops the predictable slide is very very nice wen pushing it not to mention when your down low in the corners the mulit radius profile locks in nicely hrmmmphhhh *shrug* ohhh well take it as you will its all a matter of preferance dunlop d208 180 55 zr 17's are actually wider than most other brands i have found alot wider than the metzlers and continental just to name a couple on the push pull thing lee parks says dont fight your self use only your inside arm to push the bar forward and keep the outside arm loose and relaxed try it for yourself it works very well i almost ran off the road to the inside using his techniques for the first time | ||
| M1combat |
The rear Dunlop207 is wider when measured at the sides, but include the arc and I'm pretty sure they are both pretty close to 180mm. The profile of the D207 is flatter than most other tires from what I can tell. The Dunlop seemed to work ok only when I would hang a good ways off the bike. If I didn't hang off, it seemed to want to turn the bars into the corner too hard making it somewhat difficult to be smooth. I think the problem stems from the fact that the front tire matched to the rear seems just as rounded as the fronts for the other more rounded rear tires. I think the "predictable" slip you refer to is there because you are at the edge of the rear tire and your patch is getting smaller. I wouldn't imagine a Diablo or Sportec M1 to be quite as forgiving, but I think the limit is higher (although I find the rear Metzeler pretty predictable as well). The other benefit to a taller profile is that the bike should want to fall into a lean angle easier/quicker. Oh, and one thing I don't remember anyone mentioning... Grip with the legs while on the brakes. Don't straighten your arms. | ||
| M1combat |
I've heard it said that riding a bike (with rearsets) is a lot like Slalom Skiing. Your inside foot just skimming the ground (peg), your inside pole forward (inside shoulder) and leaning way in while sliding around the corner on your outside leg. | ||
| Blake |
Even more like slalom water skiing. I remember one really embarrassing drop on the old Yamaha. I was doing a Summer semester working in Dallas in Engineering instead of offshore. On the weekends I would go to Lake Ray Hubbard every weekend water skiing with my good friend Roger and his hot rod 454 jet boat. For me anyway, the mindset for laying hard over on a slalom water ski and a sport bike are amazingly similar, really really similar. So it was Friday afternoon and I was eager to get back to the apartment, meet up with friends, and head out on the town. The happy hour at Café Dallas or Confettis were two of my favorites; two for one beer, free food, girls,... what's not to like. Well it was all apparently too much for my enthusiastic young hormone saturated brain to handle, because upon exiting the parking garage and making the tight little s-turn around the covered visitor's parking island, I layed that bike over like I was rounding the final bouy at the water skiing slalom world championships. It seems water provides better traction in some respects than asphalt and rubber. Wierd experience that was. Like my brain short circuited onto the wrong autopilot or something. | ||
| Brupska |
I would find a track that Sportbike Track Time is at. They have great instructors and a good riding clinic to help you out. I also second the Total Control book. Take it slow at first and get the basics down and then your progress will be better. Brupska | ||
| Raceautobody  |
now this is the stuff that makes this site cool. Al | ||
| Outrider |
M1combat...Thought we touched on the similarities between riding the twisties and alpine slalom techniques last year. LOL When I raced slalom, the winning techniques were Austrian, French Avalement and a combination of the two. I find a remarkable similarity between them and riding a motorcycle. Especially in the twisties and the quick transitions from one turn to the next. About the only difference is the positioning of the inside knee. Your choice, up or down. I prefer the down but have to be careful when the hard parts start dragging as I don't wear knee pucks any more. LOL Incidentally, the Austrian is most applicable to the forward lean on an XBR style bike. The Avalement works a little better on an XBS or offroad style bike as you use the front to rear weight transfer (jetting) to hook up when exiting the turn. The reason I prefer XBS style bikes on the streets is that while riding hot in the turns I always seem to find myself dodging potholes, road kill, sand/gravel, etc., which results in a lot of sliding either one or both ends of the bike. In these situations, the ability to easily transition both lateral and longitudinal is what I rely on to save my bacon. FYI, am proud to say that at 56, I can still wedel (wedeln technique) and run the moguls with long skis. Then, I started skiing at 3 and riding at 10. Lucky me, eh? Just wish I could have zerk fittings installed in my knees and lower back. LMAO | ||
| M1combat |
LOL . I'm quite sure we touched on it at least once . I'm slowly learning the "cycle" of the badweb. I'm just SOOOO glad I live in AZ and don't have to get PMS at all... | ||
| Ortegakid  |
Outrider, so true,so true, the incredible feeling of leaning over, almost touching your knees to the ground on ski's is almost as fun as grinding my knee pucs off in one day on the bolt.And at fifty, also have been doing both for almost as long as you,(my father skiied with Emille Alle and taught at Squaw),so it's in the blood.Hope to still be at ninety! | ||
| Ortegakid |
And as for the original post, my only suggestion is to learn from following others, I improved more, racing with the big guys than I ever did in class or on the street. Also, racing a little bike(ysr50,etc),will drastically improve your knee dragging and cornering techniques, try it some time! | ||
| Gentleman_jon  |
I found " Smooth Riding the Pridemore Way" by Reg Pridemore to be excellent advice, well written and illustrated. Primarily dedicate to improving streetriding skills, it also covers track riding. Here is the URL to a book dealer that has it: http://store.motolit.com/smriprwaireg.html | ||
| Surveyor  |
Great thread and great input from all, here's my 2cents worth; Set your bike/suspension up to suit you and the track Warm your tyres up - use tyre warmers or some warm up laps. Ride with the balls of your feet or toes on the pegs. This means moving your feet to change gear or use the back brake but it soon becomes natural and makes a huge difference to your balance (try balancing with the soles of your feet on the edge of a step and then try the same on your toes and you'll see what I mean. Change your body position(ie. get off the bike) early/as you approach your braking point - this way you are not adding to the stresses by moving about while the bike is braking/turning Blip the throttle as you change down - helps stop the back wheel locking up. Brake to the apex - I realise that some people disagree with this and find that it makes the bike quite difficult to turn but with practice the Buell/you can do it and it allows you to carry much greater corner speed. trail a little back brake (if you like) it helps keep things (almost) under control Turn in late (square the corner) - this allows you brake late and accelerate early but is not a good defensive line if you are racing. Use your knee as reference point - with the Buell your knee will get caught between the bike and the tarmac very easily such is the cornering ability of the bike (depending on the tyres) you will quickly find that the extent to which your sliders are grounding will give you a huge sense of security and a gauge to measure how close to the limit you are. Look through the corner and also past other riders - target fixation is your enemy. Be relaxed and smooth and progressive in your braking and acceleration. Use a higher rather than lower gear when in doubt - this will speed up your cornering Counter steering should be second nature but if you get into problems more pronounced counter steering will often save you. In my experience the old adage "slow in fast out" no longer applies neither does "get your braking done before you turn" if you want to exploit the ability of the Buell to corner. I think this is no more than a summary of what others have said. I know from experience that these techniques work but to my cost not always! But then nothing ventured nothing gained. | ||
| Outrider |
OrtegaKid...The next time I am out there, we will have to meet at the Lookout and go play Palomar, De Luz, Los Gatos, the Ortega and a few more cherished and sorely missed areas. Those were just a few of my favorite bonzai runs and my neighbor was the Chip on the Ortega back then. I promise to die laughing if I know or recognize you. I am one of the PHMC (That's the Preparation "H" Motorcycle Club for you out of towners) with World Headquarters at the Lookout. Was just out in May, rented a Mustang GT and caused my Sig "O" to stain her shorts. She enjoyed the ride as long as I promised to stop for the occasional photo op. | ||
| Vegasbueller  |
Just please, please don't buy a yellow helment! Seriously, this has been about one of the best threads I have read since coming here. Great information! | ||
| Slaughter |
I agree with Surveyor about braking deeper except if you're still just getting comfortable with the feel of the bike. Easier to go through on throttle with the bike setup and stable before the turn - then when you roll on, you're only dealing with input/response due to throttle. Trail/late braking can get you through the turn faster but as you unload the suspension by releasing the brakes, you're dealing now with 2 sets of inputs/changes - brake release/suspension unloading - added to changes with throttle. If you're on an XB, you have to deal with the anti-squat which raises the rear with heavy throttle roll-on. All the more reason to pay attention to suspension settings! 2 cases where adjusting rebound damping has a major effect. |
