| Author | Message | ||
     12bolt |
I've got a 12r with race ECM, K&N air filter, and a local shops performance slip on. I still want more power! Whats generally the next step taken to get a few more horses out of this thing? | ||
| Fireballsocal |
Techlusion maybe? Then your going inside the engine. | ||
| Slaughter  |
Don't know if Techlusion will buy you a whole lot more than the over the counter race module - til you really start opening up the engine. Almost any of your next steps to get more poop outta the motor will start hitting reliability. IF you go that route, cams, stage 3 headwork, hydrosolids, pushrods, roller rockers, all will buy you a tad more poop. Stay away from jacking up the compression. I know it's not what you asked but are you sure you don't want to work on the handling a bit? If you're not interested in other than straight line and quarter mile, these bikes can use suspension work. | ||
| Surveyor  |
Slaughter, I couldn't agree more. People need to spend more time setting up their bikes to handle well. No matter what you do in line fours are going to blast past a Buell on a straight but a well set up Buell can carry much more speed into and out of a corner. A techlusion box will only allow you to richen a lean running bike so you need to look at your gas analysis readouts off a dyno to see if you need to run richer. Rideability is also an issue, a bike with progressive and smooth power and torque curves is always going to be easier to ride to it's full potential. To my way of thinking the search for bhp at any cost is misguided | ||
| Gearhead |
Since it's obvious that both Slaughter and Surveyor have racing experience, I'd be interested in what suspension options you guys are talking about. I'm very happy with the setting I have with the stock forks and shock but I'd like to know what you would consider the next level. Even though most of my riding is on the street and occasional track days, guys I ride with have full RaceTech suspensions on their Suzukis and love them on their street bikes. Any thoughts on this?? | ||
| M1combat  |
From what I hear... RPS does a wonderful job with the stock front forks and the rear unit should be replaced. Maybe call Al at American Sport Bike. I think he gets Penske, Ohlins and ?Hyper-Pro?... | ||
| Slaughter |
You can have the forks re-worked by Traxxion Dynamics - they do more of the F-USA bikes than anybody. You can feed them all your data and they'll re-spring and re-valve the forks for you. The rear can use a Penske with both high and low-speed damping. Amazing once you get that suspension dialled in at the confidence you get in braking, turning, accelerating. The XB just seems to take a while to get dialled - though probably not much more than any other to get setup. Unfortunately - if I remember - fork work was about $450-ish, shock was $1300-ish. I'd say if you only did one, do the forks. Start sneaking up on suspension adjustments slowly. Nice to have a track or repeatable, predictable twisty bit of road. Run 4 or 5 times between adjustments. Set preload to 35mm sag in front, 30mm rear (whether with stock suspension - or full race - those sag numbers are almost universal nowadays to start out) and do no more than a quarter turn change at one time in damping! SNEAK up or down on damping - no big changes. Start out using Higbee's tables BUT they are only to get started/close. You can get mush "faster" by playing with handling and braking than the engine power. More later - past my bedtime. (Message edited by slaughter on December 20, 2004) | ||
| 12bolt |
I'm not the racing type. Just like to carve up the curves and take in the views Western Washington has to offer, however I do ride hard and there are a lot of great twisty roads here but when you come up on that straight between turns I like to open her up. | ||
| Ingemar  |
Set preload to 35mm sag in front, 30mm rear (whether with stock suspension - or full race - those sag numbers are almost universal nowadays to start out) With the stock rear spring I found that setting static sag was impossible. The spring is too weak and setting preload at 6 reduced static sag to absolute zero. I weight about a 190 pounds. I thought rider sag was more important so I accepted the compromise. I don't think I will ever spend a motherload of money on engine performance. I'd rather get better suspension when I get addicted to those trackdays. Until then, I think it's just fine the way it is. | ||
| Enigma |
IMO the Buell is a FUN bike, just as Eric designed it. Getting a few more ponies by making the bike breathe easier is fine, if you're after bigger bhp then i think you're missing the point and you're on the wrong bike for you. | ||
| 12bolt |
It's the right bike! Trust me!! Sometimes you just want your cake and eat it too! | ||
| Enigma |
Then save up for a super-charger  | ||
| Trojan  |
We opted to use the Hyperpro rear shock when we set up our race bike, and added around 3-5mm of rear ride height. This improved the steering response without making the bike overly twitchy (it would shake it's head over a change in tarmac surface but that was it). Forks were stock but with a thicker oil, although we changed the lower fork legs for the radial brake caliper setup that we use. That was the biggest single improvement in handling all year and made a MASSIVE difference. Handling was superb, and we have video of Jonathan outbraking and overtaking Ducati 996's & Aprilia RSV's around the outside of turns!!  | ||
| Blake |
Please sir, how much to get a copy of that video in some form that will run on my American format devices? | ||
| Slaughter |
My Penske was set to keep the ride height about the same on my bike. Because I had such a headshake problem before - I raised the front end (or lowered the forks in the clamps depending on how you look at it) and then started sneaking them back closer a couple mm at a time (also have steering damper). My forks are now about 5mm raised in the clamps above the stock posirion. Slows the front end down a little but that and the steering damper STOPPED the wobbles. | ||
| Reepicheep  |
Cool info Trojan, thanks! Did you switch to the radials because you were overheating the ZTL rotor? Did you then also have to run a new front wheel? | ||
| Aztec12r |
I agree with you enigma. I've done a few things to the bike but not so much for top end, more for smoothing out the low end. Techlusion has helped a lot. Mine was running lean down low. LOL... can't smooth it too much though or it wouldn't be a Buell. I like to watch my turn signals shake. | ||
| Surveyor |
Slaughter, if I understand you correctly you have maintained the standard rear ride height and raised the front ride height 5mm? Didn't that make the bike a b*****d to turn? I am looking at lowering the front end and if there are stability problems then I'll fit a steering damper? My experience is that carrying any breaking beyond the turn-in point makes it really hard work to turn the bike, how have you dealt with this? | ||
| M1combat |
Yes, you have to run a different front wheel. The Buell wheel is not strong enough to transmit braking torque through the spokes (well, that and there's no place to mount any rotors...). It has other advantages though  . Personally, I think that switching to dual rotors/brakes/heavy wheel is the wrong solution, but that's just me. The ZTL setup seems to work just fine in FX... Heat and fade are the issues that I hear, but Buell makes some "factory" pads that alleviate those problems. | ||
| M1combat |
"breaking beyond the turn-in point makes it really hard work to turn the bike," What kind of tires? Are you using the rear brake as well? | ||
| Surveyor |
I was using the stock 207s but have changed to Pirelli Diablos. Yes I trail a little back brake but carry quite a bit of front brake up to the apex - I have to as I weigh in at 200lbs+ and can't get it stopped! If by using the back brake you are suggesting backing it in to corners(?) then no I don't do that. I think corner speed is what the Buell is about and if you don't maximise it's ability in this department you have no hope of staying ahead of the in line fours etc. | ||
| Trojan |
The radial setup does need a new wheel. We used a Dymag magnesium item but we can supply the whole kit with a Marchesini front. The problems we encounted with the ZTL brake were overheating and really bad fade. At one point we went through a set of pads in 3 10 lap races! Our rider also had difficulties in turning in with the brakes on and keeping up high corner speeds (essential on the XB because of the lack of power compared to the bikes we were racing against) We tried the factory pads and the factory rotor (1mm thicker to no avail. We found the twin disc setup made the bike easier to turn in when hard on the anchors as well as offering mind blowing stopping power. I predict you will see a few big teams switching to something similar this coming season in both FX and F-USA  | ||
| M1combat |
Maybe so... I think both of them switched to dual radials at one point when they were racing in either FUSA or Thunderbikes but Erik told them that he would really appreciate it if they went back to using the ZTL. So far, they seem to have made it work. It's a new system, it needs development. Personally, I feel that it's superior. There's a LOT less un-sprung mass and from what I hear... Plenty of power. As you know though, there are always tradeoffs . | ||
| Slaughter |
Didn't that make the bike a b*****d to turn? Yes - at first I had it about 20mm lowered and it was like wrassling a stubborn mule. I had gotten headshake before on hard braking and in high speed turn-in (you enter turn 8 at Willow at over 120 on this bike) - and I was over-compensating. Now with the damper, I've brought the forks back down to where they're only 5mm above stock position. I'll be sneaking them back until it feels like headshake, then go back to the last position. Fread Finnerty got headshake on his bike so violently that it pounded the front brake pads back up into the calipers and he lost his front brakes going into turn 1 and he went off the track at over 90... fortunately he kept it upright. At first he thought it was air shaken into the lines and caliper but turned out the pads just got knocked back away from the rotor. I'm more paranoid. I could probably improve things by going back to the quicker geometry now that I've got the steering damper installed but I'm sneaking up on that. Unfortunately, the places at Willow where I used to get headshake (entering 1, 6, and 8) were all pretty quick sections. Please take all I say with a grain of salt - I'm barely into my second year of racing and most of last year was on my SV while building up the XB - so I'm still learning what works for this bike.} | ||
| Slaughter |
What Matt is talking about makes perfect sense. The only - and I mean ONLY problem with his setup would be in class racing. If it would limit you in the number of classes you could race because of "non stock" systems. For the street it'd be a killer setup. We can get away with less braking at Willow Springs because it's such a fast track - you only use brakes in 1, 3 and 5. On some of the other tracks I've run, I'm just not as fast as the fast guys so my brakes hold up better. I wish more people would be willing to put the effort into braking, suspension/handling as into getting more HP I have 25 more HP on my Buell than my SV but am still 2 seconds per lap faster on the SV - but I had a year to dial the SV in, and the Buell has only been out 3 months since all the work. (Message edited by slaughter on December 20, 2004) | ||
| Cataract2 |
Trojan, possible we can see this video? |
