| Author | Message | ||
     1324 |
Guys, hoping you can help shed some light on a couple minor issues I have. I'm in between houses and my tools are not easily accessible. Neither is my free time. Bike starts, but it's a REAL hard start. To the point that the first crank over draws enough juice that the dash goes blank and the headlight turns off. For a split second, I wonder if it'll turn over. It does. But, it doesn't always stay running and may require a second start. CEL comes on after the bike is running, though usually goes away after about 20 minutes of riding. Also, I installed a voltage indicator over the winter to keep an eye on things while I'm riding. Bottom line is that the voltage is low during charging...never into the 14+ volt range. It seems to charge better at low RPMs. I won't go on record saying it isn't charging, but it's definitely marginal. I know the 2009 1125's had issues with the stator and charging circuit. Did Buell make any funky changes to the 2009+ XB models? Battery is new, but hoping you guys have some knowledge of obvious issues that I should check first. Otherwise, I'll go through the process of checking the stator and R/R (incidentally I've never had any problems on my 03 or 05). | ||
| Ducbsa |
What year and model? | ||
| 1324 |
2009 Firebolt. 1203... | ||
| Shoggin |
The battery may be "new" but it isn't strong enough to crank the bike. Check that it's the right battery. 220CCA minimum and a good quality, NO wal-mart crap. Remove and clean the battery terminals and at least the big ground cable to the frame. put in new battery, go ride! | ||
| 1324 |
220 CCA? Bah! I have a supposed 480 CCA.  This is literally brand new right out of the box. It's been load tested and shows good...but maybe it's not. | ||
| Elff |
That does not sound legit. What brand and model is it? Sounds like a major knock off Go to batterymart.com and snag yourself a ETX14 Battery | ||
| 1324 |
I don't know why the picture stopped loading...it's an Antigravity ATX12HD. No knock off, and I've been using them for years without issue. Have one in my Ducati, as well. | ||
| Shoggin |
Your symptoms describe a bad battery. Exactly. You can deny it, you can resist it, you can spout specs, but you are asking strangers on the internet because you don't know. The magic 8-ball of the internet answers says... You have described a bad battery. Sorry you don't like the answer. | ||
| 1324 |
Mighty presumptuous of you. As I stated, the battery is brand new and was load tested to show it's good. Moving on... The original post was about more than a battery. If you don't have anything to add, kindly let someone else. I'm more than capable of fixing this, but as noted IN THE ORIGINAL POST, I'm in the middle of relocating and my time is limited. I am more curious to know if the 08+ bikes had any known culprits I should be aware of. | ||
| Elff |
I agree with Shoggin I had the same symptoms as you New battery solved it. | ||
| Skipbarberman |
How long did it sit in a box without charging? Did you charge fully before use? I know lithium likes to be kept topped off, and can/will fail if it's not before a heavy load is applied. Also, there is circuitry built-in to control the flow of electricity from the cells...that's the reason lithium batteries historically catch fire. It is possible that the circuitry is bad, or the resistance is so high on the ground/positive wires or connections that the safety features of the circuitry are kicking-in. I understand your frustration, believe me, but we are genuinely just trying to help. | ||
| Skipbarberman |
The picture finally loaded for me...this pic shows the NEW battery with the "restart' technology, which is further complexity in that circuitry that I mention. Honestly, this is the reason I have resisted the draw of converting my (4) bikes to lithium batteries. The weight savings is tremendous, but the industry has had numerous problems getting lithium technology to retrofit into tradition lead-acid or AGM starting cells. Zero bikes and most auto manufacturers who design an electric vehicle around the battery system have tighter quality control and can engineer the entire system. Trying to retro fit the technology to apply to traditional 12V starting or deep cycle uses inserts too many variables. IMHO, FWIW. | ||
| Skipbarberman |
One final note, then I'll shut up.....V-twins are brutal on batteries....that's why I put NOCO Genius 1100s (trickle charger) on every single bike when it's parked. They work great, and will pay for themselves in extending battery life. Nick - I wish I lived closer, I have a traditional Yuasa AGM that I could loan you just to try to test this out. The NOCOs are 'lithium safe' by the way, and will actually cycle/test the battery function. I bought NOCO for that reason, in the event that I do go lithium some day. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
I have a Lithium battery with only 250 CCA in my 1125R and it has no problem firing it right up. You battery should have plenty of power to fire any motorcycle. I had an XB for many years, but I don't remember the charging system to be an issue like on the '09 and later 1125Rs. IMHO, the easiest thing for you to do would be to buy a Lead acid AGM battery and see if it fixes your issue. If it doesn't then you might have an electrical system that's is not charging correctly and you can move that direction. If the problem is solved, then the issue was your Lithium battery. | ||
| Shoggin |
Asking questions on a forum because you don't know? And yet, those are trying to help "don't have anything to add" and OH! he's "more than capable of fixing this" OK you stud. Prove us wrong and fix it yourdamnself.  | ||
| Griffmeister |
Boy, why is everybody so eager to throw parts at a problem without any diagnosis? Wait until you have time then hook up a voltmeter and clamp on ammeter right at the battery. You’ll have your answer as soon as you hit the starter button. | ||
| Shoggin |
You are correct Griffmeister. I have explained all that to him already, on BuellXB, where he copy-pasted the same question. and had the same bad attitude towards the people trying to HELP him with HIS question.  I even explained how he can even get a voltmeter for free with a coupon from harbor freight haha, and/or to get an inductive ammeter to make sure the starter isn't drawing too much. But we "have nothing to add", and he is "more than capable of fixing this" so.... I'm waiting.  | ||
| Tpehak |
Bottom line is that the voltage is low during charging...never into the 14+ volt range. It seems to charge better at low RPMs. I won't go on record saying it isn't charging, but it's definitely marginal.} What exactly the voltmeter shows? Even with low voltage dead battery alternator should raise voltage to about 14V. Also make sure you charged you LiFePo4 battery before usage. Make sure you use special LiFePo4 battery charger. I use CTEK (56-926) to charge my 8 cell LiFePo4 Antigravity battery on my 2009 Buell XB12 Scg time to time. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00EUF6UM8/ref=p px_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 | ||
| 1324 |
Shoggin, this is the last time I will engage with you. I'm sorry I didn't respond sooner. For the THIRD time, I am in the process of relocating and have two young children less than 4 years old. I'm sorry I didn't respond sooner to your posts. Secondly, you must have me mixed up with someone else. Yes, I made the same post on buellxb.com, but there was only response and I never responded to that person...because I'M RELOCATING! Proof? https://www.buellxb.com/forum/showthread.php?55341 -09-Firebolt-Starting-and-Charging-Issues Are we done?? Skip - The battery shipped directly from Antigravity to me. Unsure how long it was on their shelf, but based on the conversation I had with them and the wait I had, I assume it was assembled recently. Either way, I did load test it here after I had some issues. I don't have a NOCO Genius 1100s charger and have never heard of them before - thanks for sharing. Will look into this as I've never been happy with the Battery Tender stuff, even on AGM batteries. As far as the AG LiFePo batteries, I'd have to say that this would be the first issue I've had with them in 5 years (if the battery really is the issue here). I have one on my Multistrada, FZ-09, FZ-10, and one of their portable battery jump starters. Never had an issue with any of them. My FZ-09 once sat for a 9 month stretch after a track crash and a LONG winter and started right up with no charger. So who knows... As far as the voltmeter is concerned, I'm seeing 13-13.4V at idle. Drops to high 12's and low 13's at 4000 RPM. Thanks to those who have been helpful. I'm hoping to get the bike out of the trailer this week and see how she's looking. | ||
| Tpehak |
OK, It looks like your alternator does not work properly. LiFePo4 batteries nominal voltage is about 13.2V.Your voltmeter might show just battery voltage. And the reason voltage drops down at higher RPM is because of ignition sucks power at higher RPM more and alternator does not compensate it. Start checking your VR, Stator, alternator circuits and plugs according Buell electric manual. By the way, LiFePo4 batteries does not live long on Buell XB because of engine heat blows directly to the battery compartment and hits them up. Heat just kills LiFePo4 batteries. (Message edited by Tpehak on May 13, 2019) | ||
| 1324 |
Right on. So just to confirm, the newest XB bikes didn't shut down one of the stator legs to twart high temperatures like the 1125's, correct? Like you, I thought the same thing. Charging hasn't evolved much over the years and I expected to see something over 14.0V. I've had a lot of R/R's fail over the years, but never on a Buell. | ||
| Tpehak |
2009 Buell XB has single phase stator, there are only two legs. If it will shut any leg it will stop working. It doesn't do such thing. | ||
| 1324 |
Thanks, good to know. Going to pick up a manual and get into this thing later in the week when I unpack it. | ||
| Tpehak |
Make sure you pick Electric manual, not Service manual, they are different. You can find 2008 Buell XB Electric manual PDF file in internet, it works too. | ||
| 1324 |
Good deal, I'll do some searching before ordering...thanks! | ||
| Meggadeath |
All this banter and you DON'T already have the manuals? They should have been acquired when you FIRST got the bike-otherwise you are pissin' up a rope. | ||
| 1324 |
I have the 03 and 05 manuals, and I've now downloaded the 09 copies. Pissing up a rope? Hardly. | ||
| 1324 |
Time for an update. Things got busy on my end and I've just been riding it. But I owe this thread a conclusion. Battery checked out again with over 500 CCA amps and plenty of capacity. The lead-acid AGM I bought works just fine and the bike behaves identically. No corrosion on any of the connections. Charging system checks out, though a bit on the lower end of the spec range. Still, all is well and it appears to be rock steady now that it's been ridden more frequently. Still get the very brief hesitation sometimes on start up, but it always works through it and starts right up. Sometimes takes two starts to keep it going, but we already covered that. After some forum sleuthing, this appears to be normal, though I never remember this on my 03 or 05. I'm writing this off as 'normal' and I'm all the merrier for it. I ended up replacing the clutch switch due to a high idle, though that is mostly unrelated. Revalved forks are working swimmingly, the EBR rotors are bedded, the radial master cylinder is working as expected, and I'm one spring rate away from having the shock working like I like. All in all, we're in business! She actually bailed out the Ducati on two separate issues when it wouldn't cooperate, so I'm feeling good. Ready for some new tires and geometry exploration.  | ||
| Audiowize |
Since you haven't gotten too far on this, there are other things to look into. One thing I would do is to attach a clip lead on the engine case and another one on the negative terminal of your battery, then hook them to your meter and set it to DC volts. When you try to start the bike, what DC voltage do you see there? This will check that there's adequate grounding between the battery and the starter. A simple grounding issue would explain the behavior you have; it could be something as simple as a flaky ground cable from battery to frame. If you don't see any real voltage build up here, you can put one clip lead on the + post of the starter and the other on the + terminal of the battery and repeat the test. I would expect some measurable voltage drop here for sure. Another test to do would be to test the demand that the starter is putting on the battery. This would be a follow-up test to finding excessive voltage drop on the positive or ground side of the starting system, and the folks who sold you the battery you have may know the ESR, and the starter draw can be well estimated if you know the ESR and the voltage before and during starting, the starter draw can be estimated. | ||
| 1_mike |
First...the BIKE...isn't hard starting, the engine is..! And NO bike battery has enough power to turn over a bike..! Geeze, details mean a lot boys. One thing no one has mentioned, a highly used (used-up ?) starter will draw a lot of power from the battery, much more than one in good shape, yet no one has mentioned that. Mike | ||
| Audiowize |
Mike, in the post before yours, I mentioned some tests to assess the condition of the starter. Details do mean a lot... |
