| Author | Message | ||
     Chad0394 |
I've been doing a lot of reading on the big bore kits, mostly finding work done on the 12s. I have an xb9. I know I could just invest the money in a bigger bike but I like the short stroke and want some thing just a little bit different. Its my understanding that the gains are not that much for the money invested in big bore kits. I know hammer has a 1275 kit and NHRS also has kits. Does anyone have any dyno info on theses? Also to spice things up a bit, I'm also looking into a TURBO. Any opinions about just going the turbo route? | ||
| Teeps |
The weak link in the Buell engine is always going to be the bottom end. The ball main bearings and knife & fork rod setup can only make so much power reliably. | ||
| Skipbarberman |
I just did a 1050 kit and Stage 3 cams from NRHS on my 2003 XB9R, heads ported by Zach. Have only gotten 150 mi. on it as I live in the northeast - weather has been a challenge of late. I also did a XB12 throttle body and header with a Dean Adams exhaust, all ceramic coated. It seems like a decent power increase, just haven't been able to wick it up yet. Gotten as high as 5 grand, and it pulls significantly better. Because of the XB12 throttle body, its running a bit rich on the lower end, but I'm hoping to have more feedback in a bit. If you search on my posts, I went through much of the daunting mental gyrations of 1050, 1169, XB12 motor swap, et. al. I'm happy with the direction I took, but 'bang-for-the-buck' - jury is still out. I owe alot to Dan of NHRS, Phelan (Ross), Zach and several others for parts, service and guidance. Now, I'm digging into the tuning side. | ||
| Skipbarberman |
Oh, and I should mention - I have (2) Aprilia's; a 2008 RSV1000R Factory and a 2002 RST (Futura), and both of these will stomp the XB9R. We'll see what happens after break-in, between 5-8k RPM. It'll never pull like either of those, but I accept it for what it is...a TZ250 sized package that is a lot of fun to ride, and requires almost ZERO maintenance. | ||
| Yellow9s |
Hey Skip I almost did that exact same build last winter. I have an 03 9s. Did a 1050 kit and Cat 3 cams from Dan. Had Zach do my heads. Also did the xb12 throttle body and header. Jardine carbon exhaust and open air box. I’m tuning with dual innovative wide bands. I have about 2500 miles since motor build. It dynoed at 93hp 83tq last month with stock cams. Cams and 60lb injectors will be here tomorrow. | ||
| Skipbarberman |
Yellow9s - Cool. So, 93hp 83tq with stock or CAT3 cams from Dan? You don't happen to have a map, do you? I just ordered a refurbished Microsoft Surface to data log with. No wideband O2s, just a single narrowband in the rear and a pipe plug in the front. I could change them if I had to, just not sure what to do next. Didn't want to hijack the OPs thread - what are your thoughts on the 'bang-for-the-buck' scale? | ||
| Yellow9s |
That was with stock cams. Cams and bigger injectors will be here today. Bought 60lb injectors because with the mods and stock cams I’m at 94% on stock injectors. Cams would just make that worse. Sent you a pm | ||
| Phelan |
You don't need bigger injectors at that power level; I maxed out an underperforming injector at 117 RWHP on the XB90R I built (90" Firebolt). You just need to increase the base AFV and rescale and tune your maps accordingly. If it isn't yet at 100% AFV for the base, make sure it is at least that, also make sure you are physically disconnecting the o2 sensor before tuning, and make sure you are tuning to the target AFRs in the ECM, not the Turner's recommended AFRs, as those are useless once you reconnect the o2 sensor as it will make adjustments towards its stored targets. (Message edited by phelan on October 25, 2018) | ||
| Phelan |
Even when the maps show a full 255 value in the fueling box, that is not 100% capacity of the injector, that is just maximum value for the programmed duty cycle before the AFV and temperature multipliers are added, which can make the injector stay open even longer. You cannot change the duty cycle with ECM Spy but you can trick it by setting a higher base AFV. The base AFV on the XB90R is now 122%, which is fine. | ||
| Phelan |
You also cannot access the target AFRs in ECM Spy, but you can view them if you save the map externally (like on the desktop) and open the file with a text editor like Notepad. You can also change them if you change the file extension to .text beforehand, edit them, then save and return the file extension to what it was. | ||
| Phelan |
Also worth noting, the stock injectors are ~ 35 lb/hr, so 60 lb/hr is nearly double the original size. It's doable, but requires serious rescaling and oversized Deka injectors have been known to have erratic performance at idle when the milliseconds (values in the fueling maps are milliseconds) are on the very low end of the injector Performance spectrum. | ||
| Yellow9s |
Interesting. Didn’t know that about the fuel values. Thought 255 was max on the injectors. Guess I have some 60lb injectors for sale. I datalog front and rear cylinder separately with ecmspy then use mlv to change target afr. How am I supposed to tune with the o2 sensor disconnected? I only have wide bands. You mean turn off o2 in ecmspy? | ||
| Phelan |
Disconnect the stock o2 sensor from the main harness. If you have a wideband in it's place, it depends on how it is wired in, you may have to deal with just turning it off in the ECM if your wideband is emulating narrowband signal. | ||
| Yellow9s |
I’ve had my o2 sensor turned off in ecmspy for a long time. I only have wide bands. One in each cylinder. I’ve made a custom map in mlv with wot at 13:1, cruising at 14:0, and idle at 13:2. This is what I’m currently running. When I go out riding and not tuning I leave the o2 off because I know my map is solid. I get a check engine light for the o2 sensor being off but it doesn’t bother me. How can I keep these afr with the wb emulating a nb? Basically how can I turn everything on like it was from the factory and keep these afr? I don’t know how soo leave everything off and use the map I made. With everything off the ecu won’t make changes to my map. | ||
| Firemanjim |
Turbo not for the faint of heart, need plumbing for the exhaust, the waste gate, up pipe to plenum, oil for turbo( and because the Buell is a ball bearing motor with low oil pressure, you will need a ball bearing turbo) Then you need to fuel the thing under boost, usually requires an external fuel pump and boost referenced fuel pressure regulator, and a 3 bar map sensor-- and forgot a blow off valve, and making sure the oil out of turbo has good path to engine or you will need a scavenge pump.And generally you lower the compression if you intend to run more than a couple pounds of boost. So, no problem, right--- | ||
| Shoggin |
Yellow9s "With everything off the ecu won’t make changes to my map" I guess I don't understand the question? So do you want the ECM to correct (CL on) or not (CL off)? If you like your AFR targets where they are, cool. Put them in the tables and either put the NB back in or emulate NB with the existing WB sensors. Win! | ||
| Slaughter |
I'd go with the bored-out short stroke motor. It is expensive but probably not as much as a turbo. Case spigot bores, new jugs, and if you're a pre-2008, I'd recommend having Dahmer at DarkHorse CrankWorks bore/install the bigger bottom end bearings. As others have said, the bottom end is the weak link in the chain. If you go bigger valves, cams, you should consider high pressure fuel regulator. You can also have a lot of weight taken out of the flywheels, you'd LOVE the quick revving engine. You'd need somebody familiar with the tuning system you're using. You MIGHT be able to get maps to save some dyno time. You can get head/valve work done too. Speed costs money. How fast you wanna go. I'd STRONGLY recommend suspension and brakes before motor though. Nothing beats CONFIDENCE in braking/turning/acceleration. These beasts are made to be good in the twisty bits. (Message edited by slaughter on October 28, 2018) | ||
| Ducbsa |
What brake upgrades? ZTL2, better pads? | ||
| Shoggin |
Both. The EBC HH pads are great for the street and adding a ZTL-2 caliper is a bolt-on job. Keep an eye on e-bay. LAP has been selling them for as cheap as $150 NEW with pads. You'll need to change the master cylinder to match the ZTL-2 caliper. You can either get a later model Buell one or just buy a 19mm (3/4") radial M/C that fits 7/8" bars (you'll need the matching brake lever for that one as well) The upgrade is very cheap, bolt-on, and IMO HUGELY worth it. If you have money left, A good front brake rotor (EBC, EBR race, no chinese stuff) and the EBR solid mounting kit are worthwhile as well. |
