| Author | Message | ||
     Glitch |
Aztec Me too. Since I see no harm being done trying it, that may be what I do. Ingemar Make sense to me. Well said...explained. I agree. | ||
| Buell_zen |
Buell_Zen: The stock ECM wouldn’t have enough range to adjust for the new parts. Ingemar: Until someone steps up who really knows what he is talking about, I beg to differ. No, I disagee. My comments were based on: 1. Talking to Keven the designer of the Drummer over the phone. 2. The posting of the air/fuel charts of the on the race vs. the stock ECM on this site. 3. My on Dyno testing of the race vs. the stock ECM on my bike. | ||
| Ingemar |
1. Talking to Keven the designer of the Drummer over the phone. Both Kevin and Brian are very knowledgeable people. Much more so than myself. I believe it was Brian who said the stock ecm works fine with the Drummer. I'd reckon they would both agree that the stock ecm is not programmed for optimal performance in a stock configuration, let alone with an open airfilter and muffler. So a reference to a phone call is not gonna convince me I'm wrong. If that's what Kevin meant in his convertation with you, I really hope he's gonna chime in here to explain the matter in more detail. 2. The posting of the air/fuel charts of the on the race vs. the stock ECM on this site. I've seen many air/fuel mixtures. I've seen the difference between a stock and race ecm. What I read from it is that stock is near 14.something and race is at 13.something. Ratio, not a limit on total amount on the stock ecm. 3. My on Dyno testing of the race vs. the stock ECM on my bike. I haven't seen that I think, but the same applies as to your previous point. So, let's asume you are right. For the sake of this explaination, the maximum amount of fuel that can be injected with the stock ecm is at WOT, with a stock airfilter and muffler. Lets call this point "100". Opening up the airfilter and muffler would, hypothetically speaking, allow for 15% better flow and would thus be aquivalent to "115". In that configuration it would mean that at 85% of throttle the mixture would still be good at 14.something, but at WOT it would mean it's 15% below 14.something. That's what I want to see on an air/fuel ratio sheet. Can you show me that on a yours? To my knowledge, what is limiting the amount of fuel that can be injected are the injectors themselves or the fuel pump. Dunno which comes first. | ||
| Buell_zen |
That's what I want to see on an air/fuel ratio sheet. Can you show me that on a yours? I don't have a scanner so I can't post my charts. I posted the specs in the Knowledge Vault. I wasn't able to do the air/fuel curve because the probe wouldn't go up the Drummer as I posted on my first comment. I had a big dip in the torque curve at 4000 through 5000 rpm. This was similar to the dip posted here: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/32777/75104.html?1097189693 My dip was not as bad but it was still there. That seem to go along with Keven's instruction to put the Race ECM on as it has a greater range of air/fuel ratios that it can handle. Please don't consider my analysis as gospel. | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
Ingemar its the injectors. What you want is an injector that runs at no more then 80% duty cycle to pump the amount of fuel you need. Anything above 80% cycle and the injector is just running like a hose full time through each intake timing. That means you end up with unburnt fuel trapped in the intake by the closing of the intake valve that is suppossed to be in the cylinder The Fuel pump has plenty of flow. The big thing that Buell Zen is saying is the Techlusion still needs to be tuned for the adjustments you want through out the rev range. To do that properly you need to take A/F readings at each revrange under load. Its the same with the PCIII. | ||
| Ingemar |
Please don't consider my analysis as gospel. I'm not. Neither do I claim to be 100% right on this. But I do hope we can discuss the matter so we all learn from it. I think I remember I read somewhere that the dip you see at 4000 rpm with the stock ecm is because the bike needs to conform to certain laws supposed to protect the environment. The stock ecm leans out the mixture around that rpm range so that carbon dioxide is minimized. The race ecm does not need to conform to those rules because it is 'for track use only'. It is not street legal. It can therefore attain the 13.something air/fuel ratio needed for optimum performance, regardless of how many birds and plants that's gonna kill. Wycked: thanks for reminding me. I forgot about that. I'll see if I can dig up the thread about that... | ||
| Trenchtractor |
Zen, that's my dyno curve you've dug up. Ing, have you heard of the Adaptive Fuel Value (AFV)?? A couple of points here. 1. Your engine is an air pump. It's air flow curve is set by it's physical properties, everything from the snorkel, air box, throttle body, head, headers and muffler play a part in how the motor flows air at various points of the RPM range. 2. Your fuel curve is set by your ECM fuel map. EFI gurus at Buell would have written the stock ECM fuel map based on the air flow of a stock machine. 3. Air Fuel Ratio is a factor of both these. In an ideal world without EPA reg's and variable like elavation, the Fuel curve would match the Air Flow curve exactly, and the A/F ratio would be perfect Stoic. 4. It's not a perfect world and the dip is there to pass EPA regs. 5. It's not a perfect world and for the A/F ratio to be as close as possible, the AFV (Buells answer) is a variable that in simple terms shifts the 2 dimensional fuel curve up/down to try and suit the air flow curve under different conditions. In a perfect world your AFV would be 100%. A lower percentage means the bike is trying to add more fuell. I have no idea what the upper and lower limits are, but +/-15% has been described to me as "limits of acceptability". 6. A exhaust or intake mod doesn't just allow more air in a wholesale fashion. It will allow more air at different RPM, so these types of mods may change the entire shape of the air flow curve, meaning you should change the shape of the fuel map to suit. The AFV could make up for your modifications if they were withing the tolerances of the AFV range, so long as they allowed the same amount of extra air throughout the RPM range, but we all know it doesn't happen that way. 7. Once you have a new fuel map shape to suit the air flow curve, the stock ECM can then carry out any adjustments for ambient condition changes as it would have in 100% stock trim, since the new fuel map = the new air flow curve. 8. In reference to point 6 above, it is likely that if you change the shape of the air flow curve by adding a muffler or filter that the following scenario is possible: You ride at a constant speed on the highway, at say 3,000rpm. The DDFI will adjust the AFV (measured as a percentage) to set the A/F ratio to it's optimum as per the fuel map, at 3,000rpm. Since the air flow curve is now a different shape, the fuel curve may only correspond with it at 3,000rpm. It's likely that everywhere else on the curve would either be running lean or rich. By how much depends just on teh set-up you have. I hope this has made sense. I tried to keep it simple. | ||
| Trenchtractor |
BTW Zen, I can see no reason why you can't get the probe up a drummer... You should be able to shove it at least 300mm in... And the Dobeck Techlusion Stealth TFi is adjustable, in the same manner you adjust a carbie. That's the point of getting one. Once it's set for the particular air flow mods you have, the stock ECM does the rest. If you wanted to see how well the TFi was set, you only have to get an AFV reading at your dealer. If it's close to 100% for a normal day in your area, then the TFi SHOULD be pretty much spot on. | ||
| Trenchtractor |
The Techlusions Stealth TFi for the XB's is designed for the stock ECM. Using it with the Pro Series ECM brings on the engine warning lamp. Personally, I can't figure out why. Bueller?? We are waiting to here from Ortegakid if he can get Dobeck to set the TFi up for the Pro Series ECM. | ||
| Ingemar |
Thank you Brad. That made perfect sense. I know about the AFV and how it works. I know about the open and closed loop operation for FI. That's why I used the numbers "100" and "115". It aludes to the AFV, I just didn't mention it. You said A lower percentage means the bike is trying to add more fuel I beg to differ. From the Buell DDFI reference material:
What I understand from that is that if your bike is running rich for a cause other than AFV, the system tries to adjust by bringing down the AFV (set it below 100), iow, leaning out the mixture. On point 8 and the possible scenario you draw, how would that be different with a race ecm? I don't see how that would be different. The method of learning the AFV of the race ecm is identical to the stock ecm, with the exeption of A/F ratio being a little richer ... or am I missing something? On that same scenario, I understand from your explaination that after the AFV is set at 3000 rpm, it no longer changes and applies that same AFV to the whole map during open loop operation. I'm not sure, but I think that is incorrect. According to my knowledge, the AFV is a constantly changing factor. The 'learning' we talk about is a steady few minutes' ride between 40-60mph, between 2500-3500 rpm. It has then set a baseline for adapting to variables (input from the 6 sensors), but it's not fixed. I'm not trying to be an PITA Brad. I'm simply sharing what I understand from doing my homework, and learn from others. Thanx! Ingemar. | ||
| Glitch |
Using it with the Pro Series ECM brings on the engine warning lamp. I wonder what trouble code this would be. Anyone know. I'm not beyond going back to the stock ECM, if I get to keep all my mods. | ||
| Rigga |
thought the latest techlusion module 1045st had eliminated the ecm light problem?.......if the unit is designed to work with the standard ecm,i see no reason why it wont work with the race one..if it basicly acts like a dynojet kit on a carb fed engine,then all you are doing is increasing the fuel ratio at certain points in the rev range? therefore as the race ecm is richer to begin with than the standard unit,wouldnt that be a better starting point for engines with modified inlet systems?...drilled 12 airbox,fast kit and the like?.....more air req more fuel and all that?.....just a thought | ||
| Ortegakid |
Dobeck gave me an incredibly complex technical dissertation on why the race ecm lights on, but bottom line is it does not cause any problems, nor does the light stay on,after riding hard in the canyons, seems to stay off longer also.Will keep you all informed! | ||
| Dcmortalcoil |
Ingemar, Doesn't AFV stand for air/fuel ratio? 100% would be at stoichmetric (14.x/1). So if it is below 100%, it would mean engine running rich, and vice-versa. That makes sense because my bike was running lean at AFV of 115%, as measured at the dealer. The Buell technician informed me that it's because I didn't have a Race ECM, while running with a K&N filter (at that time I didn't have a Drummer on). (Message edited by dcmortalcoil on October 18, 2004) | ||
| Rocketsprink |
Does a TPS reset need to be done with the Techlusion as with the Race ECM. The jury is still out as far as I'm concerned on which direction to go. A lot of good information and I appreciate it. Due to winter coming, I'm not in a big hurry either way. I'll just keep reading and hopefully I'll make a decision. Thanks again guys. Please keep the info coming. | ||
| Blake |
AFV = Adaptive Fuel Value. It is a fuel supply factor that changes depending on atmospheric conditions. A TPS reset is for the benefit of the ECM, cannot imagine why it would need performed if the ECM is not changed. | ||
| Dcmortalcoil |
Blake is right. No TPS reset is needed since neither the throttle body nor the ECM is changed. | ||
| Ingemar |
That makes sense because my bike was running lean at AFV of 115%, as measured at the dealer. That is exacltly what I'm saying. You install a high flow air filter, causing the engine to run lean. The ecm will try to correct that by giving it MORE fuel. In your case, 15%. | ||
| Srlorg |
Does anyone have an idea of settings for an XB9 with stack, race ecm, tiforce pipe, drilled airbox? Im getting one later today. Thanks | ||
| Srlorg |
I meant for a Techlusion box... | ||
| Dcmortalcoil |
Too difficult to set the dials without A/F ratio reader or dyno. I just set it to the recommended setting: G=3 Y=7 R=4 O2=7 | ||
| Ortegakid |
Dat's where I set mine allthough after riding I ended up backing the green one to 2,seems a-ok! | ||
| Aztec12r |
Ortega.. is your light still coming on at all? | ||
| Trenchtractor |
Ortegakid is getting a warning lamp on his 12 because he is using the race ecm. So can we please stop asking the same question. Thanks. Ingemar, I don't mind being corrected. I can never remember the way the AFV goes... I know I thought it was one way, was corrected once and it seems have been corrected every time the topic comes up. Either way doesn't matter unless you have a malfunction... In that scenario, the race ECM and stock ECM operate the same. I was trying to illustrate that the shape of the fuel curve is essentially fixed and when you change the air flow curve, you need to adjust the fuel curve to suit, ie, you need a techlusion. A Race ECM does not have an adjustable curve, and is set up for the race kit AS A KIT. A different muffler (say Jardine) will inherantly create different air flow to the pro series muffler. But the ECM goes into closed loop more often than most give it credit for. The first batch of stealth TFi's (the ones that work with the XB without bringing on the light, so long as you use the stock ECM) were prototypes, the way I understand it. The next batch will be the absolute goods. Taken from an email I received... our technology is designed in and around the stock ECU map. we have seen where the Race version is adding a blanket amount of fuel which results in some load based issues with our programming. the servo cable can be disconnected at the motor and power still hooked up so that the ECU is satisfied. that way the flapper valve can be removed and no worries. we are awaiting a small code change to encompass the XB models, right now the unit tests fine on the X1's and ST's but has a small issue with the XB's. we are slated to release the new unit on 11/5 and our Australian distributor has placed an order for them then. have a great ride George Levings Tech / Sales Support Dobeck Performance Now, it's obvious to me that these guys are like a lot of you lot, in that they are satisfied for us to leave the servo motor attached. I don't have anywhere to "shove" my servo motor any more... I have designed a location for it. I wonder if my bike will even be a Buell, soon, the way I am going. | ||
| Aztec12r |
lol.... hey ortega, are you still getting your light? or is it still on and off? Trench, I'll ask a question as many times as I want thanks, it wasn't directed at you or anyone else besides ortega. <laughing> | ||
| Xbolt12 |
Hmmm Trench, interesting feedback from Dobeck. For what it's worth mine is working great. I did turn up the mid-range (pot below yellow LED) to the 8 o'clock position with the Jardine. As far as engine check light with stock ECM, it never has come on. Just to recap: XB12R with stock exhaust, TFI, no snorkel, and race filter-TFI at factory settings-ran great. XB12R with Ti Jardine, TFI, no snorkel, race filter and Yellow pot to 8 o'clock. Bike is running great! Turned up the idle just a tad to about 1100 rpm on tach and it revs clean, no more hesitation off idle (like it always had before). Bike is running clean. Also an answer to and older question: Do the LED's cycle back and forth at idle? Answer: yes and no. It appears to happen when the idle speed dips below about 1100 rpm. As we all know XB's don't have the steadiest idle, so now that I turned the idle up a little the LED's cycle intermittantly with idle rpm fluctuations. Also if I read correctly the LEDs coming on mean adding fuel over stock (ie: increasing pulse width to the injectors), so it may simply be the TFI doing it's job. Anyway I am not worried about it at all as I have about 1,000 hard miles now with the TFI and no glitches. xbolt12 | ||
| Glitch |
and no glitches. Hopefully I'll have one soon  | ||
| Ortegakid |
Yes, still getting the light, it is completely ignored as I wheelie down the road,no problems,and it's a xb9r as in my profile! | ||
| Buell_boy_beau |
Ortegakid,does your first three lights on tfi flash on idle? tfi is the go!good improvements.i'm thinking of getting nallin 1050 kit, i can adjust fuel setting on tfi unlike ecm. | ||
| Odie |
XBolt and Ortega- good info. Sounds like I'll be getting one after the holidays. Maybe Santa will bring me one for Christmas......  |
