| Author | Message | ||
     Trenchtractor |
Two dyno charts... Run 002 is stock ECM, run 007 is the race ECM. Nothing else was changed... Straight through muffler, K&N air cleaner for both runs.   So you can note the correspondence between the lean condition of run 002 (stock ECM) and it's power and torque dips... Note also that the slight lean condition is exactly where I was having problems with pinging on my bike... I now firmly believe that since there is more fuel available with the race ecm that the greater advance of the race ecm is the culpret of our pinging troubles... This is where I believe a fuel controller will help, we could use the stock ecm for advance curve and the fuel controlled to add fuel... | ||
| Buell_zen |
Thanks for posting! I just ordered a race ECM last night and your post is great for letting me know what I might expect if I put it on. | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
TT, Starter reminded me in another thread about the EPA readings. On the US bikes we don't have that EPA reading at 2500-3000 rpm, which if I read your chart right is where your lean spot is. The Euro riders have mentioned an EPA wire off the ECM and its got me to wondering if you guys have the same deal. That wire causes the ECM to lean out in the EPA reading zone, and if you unplug that wire the engine runs normal through that zone. | ||
| Starter |
The white wire only effects the stock ECM and from the feel of the bike I think it might alter timing. So when we have the good A/F ratio of the Race ECM we still get nailed by the aggressive ignition advance. I can only run 2 fuels in my bike - Shell Optimax or BP Ultimate. | ||
| Kowpow225 |
I hope I'm not the only one. What am I looking at? Is the top one AFV and the bottom hp/tq numbers? Horsepower is listed twice on the left axis. Should it be zero through fifteen? Thanx for the post trench! This info can be helpful once its clarified a bit. | ||
| Kowpow225 |
Man, I shouldn't jump the gun like that. Didn't scroll over. Can someone still explain where lean and rich points are on this graph? | ||
| M1combat |
In the top pic... The A/F ratio is the more radically shaped line, the other is HP. In the bottom pic... Those are Torque and HP. | ||
| M1combat |
FYI - The A/F ratio of 17.5/1 means that there is 17.5 times as much air by volume. | ||
| Xbolt12 |
Great post! Now if the Techlusion would hurry up and make an appearance! Nobody ever answered whether the Techlusion box is real, or is this another CJ scheme? xbolt12 | ||
| Buell_zen |
kowpow I think about 13 to 1 is considered ideal on the air fuel mixture. 17 to 1 would be lean and 11 to 1 would be a bit rich. | ||
| Opto |
Trench, how does the new straight through muffler go? More importantly is the bike now rideable with the race ecm? Very interesting info thanks. Just wondering if that torque dip in the middle is something to do with the pipe but could be tuned out with some more fuel (if one had the means to do this)... M1 the A/F ratio is by weight (mass) not volume. | ||
| M1combat |
Good point... I stand corrected  . | ||
| Blake |
Brad, Something is wrong, you are still WAY lean around 4000 rpm. I'd not characterize a 15.5:1 A/F ratio as a "slight" lean condition. That is a seriously scary lean condition for a high compression high performance air-cooled engine. I strongly suggest that the leaness is the root cause of your pinging. An EFI augmentation module may be in order if you have eliminated all other possibilities. You say a "straight through pipe". Are you running straight pipes? Frank, I understand likewise, anywhere between 12.5 and 13.5 is good for optimum power. Opto, Yeah mass, good call. Thanks. | ||
| Vaughn |
Optimum power/fuel economy/emmissions AF ratio is 14.7:1 known as Stoichiometric or Theoretical Combustion. It is the ideal combustion process during which a fuel is burned completely. A complete combustion is a process which burns all the carbon (C) to (CO2), all hydrogen (H) to (H2O) and all sulfur (S) to (SO2). If there are unburned components in the exhaust gas such as C, H2, CO the combustion process is uncompleted. AF=(mass of Air)/(mass of Fuel) Best power is slightly richer 12:1-13:1 or there about. | ||
| M1combat |
I would leave power out of the 14.7 ratio... That's best for fuel efficiency and emissions. | ||
| Mikeo |
Somethings not right with the second chart. The HP must be equal to TQ at 5250 rpm because HP=TQ*RPM/5250 MikeO | ||
| Vaughn |
They are equal. Read TQ value at right and HP left for 5250rpm (about 69). | ||
| Trenchtractor |
I posted this the night before I went into hospital... So here are my comments... Opto... The straight through muffler is a failure on it's own. :-( But that was kinda expected, you don't just bang out a muffler and have it work first go, or everyone would just build their own. We have more plans... As for ridability, one thing I've managed to do is stop the pinging with the race ECM. Makes designing a muffler tough when it's got to prevent pinging and add power and torque, all when the stock one is soo good at its job. Wyked and Starter... I am not sure the wire deal applies to the 12's... I'd like more info if it does, but think it's a thing for the 9's only... Xbolt... I will have a TFi for my bike in a coulple of weeks, it's on order from the aussie distributer now. If I prove it, will look into selling them. To Aussie guys. Not discrimination, just trying to involve aussie business keep a couple of dollars on our shores and save us aussie guys some money. Blake, Tell me about it. The stock fueling is wrong!! The race ECM fuelling is wrong!! That 'slight' lean condition is a LOT better than the very lean stock ECM condition, though... Even though the entirely stock bike has a totally differnt A/F curve, at it's best it's 14.5... And that richest condition is between 3,000 and 3,500rpm for about 250rpm. The best it is after that is 14.5 from 6,000rpm up... And the muffler was a protoype straight through... Just like any other race pipe... Only it wasn't right. I have serious concerns about pipes that claim to require no EFI adjustments now... I have a dozen charts here, but just thought these would be of interest since they represented a bike with no airbox, race type muffler and two different ECMs. Now, I have to recover from being on self administered morphene for the last week... AGRHH the headache.... | ||
| Xbolt12 |
Trench, I've got my TFI box on order now. I'll let you know how it works if I get it before you! xbolt12 | ||
| Outrider |
The stock fueling is wrong!! The race ECM fuelling is wrong!! That 'slight' lean condition is a LOT better than the very lean stock ECM condition, though... LMAO...And everyone said I was crazy when I reported the lean conditions a fews years back with my X1 and either ECM. Now you know why I added the Techlusion DFO and have been happy ever since. Few things to remember. Stock ECM's are programmed lean to meet the EPA requirements. Race ECM's are programmed slightly richer for higher output race engines which get torn down a lot so lean running is not that bad as you are regularly inspecting the parts. Bottom line is if you want a reliable street bike with more performance, you need to add a DFO to a Race ECM and dial it in with a complete dyno tune. Of interest, on my X1, the DFO with the Stock ECM, K&N Filter and Vance & Hines muffler resulted in a surging condition that went away as soon as I put the Race ECM on. That one still baffles me, as the surging didn't show on the dyno and we tried to dial it out over a three day period. Blame it on the stars, eh? Figured after about three years, I am having a full dyno tune done tomorrow to see if the settings need adjusting or if they held up to 12,500 miles of vibration. Will let you know what we discover. | ||
| Glitch |
Will let you know what we discover. Please do. Try and post the graph as well. | ||
| Outrider |
Turned out to be only around 10.0K miles. Seems I never look at the real odo, just the trip odo for fill ups. LOL Did need a little adjustment as it was a tad lean on the bottom and fat on the top. The tuner attributed that to engine wear. I have the bike adjusted for low and mid range as I work the twisties between 3.0 and 4.5K rpm and don't do the WFO thing in the straights cause that's where the radar is. As a result, my max hp was 85.2 and max torque 69.6. The A/F ratio is between 13 and 14 from 3.0K rpm's all the way up to redline. The only exception to this is a dip to 12 at 2.5K rpms. Runs like a champ and am looking forward to many miles of smiles from the X1. | ||
| Lightning_strikes_now |
Trench What would happem if one would install the race ecm in an XB12 using the stock muffler, a K&N filter and the interactive exhaust valve locked open. Do you think there would be an increase in HP and torque? Lightning | ||
| Trenchtractor |
There is a point on the torque curve at 5200rpm... If you run the bike with the muffler locked closed the rusultant curve is just like the stock curve up to 5200rpm, then it drops away. If you run the bike with the muffler locked open, the oposite is true, there is a torque loss below 5200rpm, but from 5200rpm the curve is the same as stock... So, compared to using the servo and valve, there are nothing but losses involved with the stock muffler and no servo control. I would expect the configuration you have described would provide an overall gain compared to stock, since the K&N would improve flow, the Race ECM sports a more aggressive advance curve and the muffler locked open is the shortest path would yield a top end gain. For example, I have a muffler that was a prototype. It didn't work. As a bolt on item, it cost power AND torque but sounds awesome. I made up for the loss we suffered with a K&N, no air box and race ECM. Now the bike is much stronger than stock, but I know can be a lot better too, since the muffler is a liability at this stage. So you can imagine just how keen i am to get the muffler to work!!! Anyhow, my advice would be to keep the stock ECM, keep your stock muffler with the servo attached and spend the money you were going to spend on the race ECM on the Techlusion Stealth TFi instead... The stock ECM is less sooky about what fuel you use and the TFi is adjustable, so it will allow you to cater for other modifications you will end up making later...  | ||
| Mark_from_newfoundland |
If I remember my eng. and chem. correctly the torque/HP crossover happens at 5225 RPM and Air/Fuel ratios are 14.7 (Stock for emissions, fuel enc., etc. a little bit on the lean side) and 12.7 for best power (a little richer, might not pass emissions though). I just scanned this thread so I don't know if this has been posted yet or not. I also seem to remember being cautioned about going beyond the 12 to 15 range. Hope this is correct and helpful. Cheers. | ||
| Zx9rmal |
My question is, how come some of us (like me) who have the complete race kit do NOT get ANY pinging?AND, I ride in HOT weather. Gas quality variations? | ||
| Xbolt12 |
Yikes! Look at Trenchtractors "Race vs stock ECM" post here. You might be running waaaay lean in the middle. Also look at the treads hear on Techlusion-I've had good luck so far. Waiting to see Trenchtractors dyno results though (especially AF ratio). xbolt12 | ||
| Xbolt12 |
Oops! My bad-wrong thread. xbolt12 | ||
| Trenchtractor |
:-0 | ||
| Buell_zen |
I just ran my Drummer without a race ECM on my XB9S. I noticed that there was a large hole at 4K RPM in the torque curve. I plan to install the race ECM soon to fill the hole. |
