| Author | Message | ||
     Absurded |
Are the Braking brand wave rotors still available..? | ||
| Glitch |
http://www.twinmotorcycles.nl/webshop/artikel.asp? guid=YXHFSC&aid=3356&cid=201&s=&a=&aname=Buell_XB_ and_1125_wave_FRONT_brake_disc | ||
| Absurded |
Thanks..! | ||
| Ducbsa |
I sure like my EBR front rotor. | ||
| 50dro |
The one that Twin Motorcycles (and we) offer is made by Galfer not Braking. I have one on my bike and like it a lot. If you're in the states, we can help you out if interested. Here's the link on our site: http://www.5-0dro.com/index.php/buell/xb-models/20 03-2007/twin-motorcycles-xb-1125-front-rotor-detai l | ||
| M1combat |
Don't get a rotor with holes... Get one of these...  | ||
| Nillaice |
I guess a wave rotor looks cool, like when guys mount spoilers upside down on their Hondas  | ||
| M1combat |
Right... Emphasizing inherent under-steer characteristics. Seriously though... A wave rotor may be OK if it didn't have holes. Especially big arsed diamond shaped holes. | ||
| Trojan |
A wave rotor may be OK if it didn't have holes. Especially big arsed diamond shaped holes. Why are the holes a bad thing in your view? braking have been supplying brakes to Moto2, Moto3, WSB and WSS racers for many years and tend to know what makes a brake disc work properly. If it didn't need holes then they wouldn't put them in. In my experience the Braking wave discs work better than stock Xb discs in keeping pads cooler, giving better braking without so much fade, and much better in wet weather. braking and Galfer are two very different companies and they do not share product development or slaes, so if you buy a Braking dissc it will certainly not be made by Galfer (and vice versa). We have been selling Braking discs for many years (and still do) and have never experienced any problems with them on any models, including the XB and 1125. | ||
| Ericz |
I have really enjoyed the performance of my Braking rotors on my XB! I bought them from Trojan in 2006! | ||
| Satori |
Where you get most of the fade in a disc setup, is the hot gases that are created by the pads, that hot gas expands and pushes the pads away from the disc=fade. in the stock XB setup the disc is completely encompassed by the pads and the holes are not enough to let those gases escape, thus the Change to the cutouts on The EBR's those cutouts always have some exposure, so the gases escape. The wave rotors it looks like is uncovering the pads around the edges, doing the same thing. I think if it were me I would spend the money on a disc that is made by the guy that built the original bike, just my .02 | ||
| M1combat |
A drilled rotor "will work". I'm not going to contest that fact. It'll stop the bike. I'd also not contest that "waves" may be beneficial. I'd say maybe a sawtooth pattern may be better though... If you're doing it for surface area and not aesthetics... If.. That said... A rotor that's slotted like the EBR will work better. There's more surface area, there's more metal and there's exhaust. As far as the Braking rotor... The huge arsed holes will flex with the rest of the rotor. Any edge that runs through the pads, while the rotor is flexed, that isn't running parallel to the direction if travel... is going to chew up the pads. Think about taking that same pattern and cutting it into a straight and flat chuck of metal, then bend it into a curve with the holes facing in/out. Now run a piece of Aluminum along it. There will be witness marks. There won't be when it's flat, but there will be when it's curved. This wouldn't simulate exactly what the pads see (because the rotor moves through the pads in something of an "S" shape with the lion's share of the curves being at the leading and trailing edge of the pad), but it's just an illustration. Whether they chew up the pads more or less than a drilled rotor is beyond me... but I suspect more. That's not even my primary concern though... The point of drilling rotors is to add surface area, reduce weight and evacuate gas. Reducing weight is really more of a side benefit, but generally regarded as mostly worth it due to that fact that it's un-sprung. Evacuating gas is done better with slots like the EBR rotor has. The holes on the Braking rotor completely screw the pooch with regards to adding surface area via removing mass. It's like they didn't even know that adding surface area was a significant benefit to drilling the holes or something. Also... Mass can be good when it comes to brake rotors as there's more mass for the heat to soak into. It will pull more heat out of the pads and caliper. That's a good thing. Balance is required though. You don't want so much heat in the rotor that you can't cool it and you don't want so much heat in the caliper that you cook the pads or the fluid. I'm sure there's more... Just look at modern top shelf race cars. Not F1 but like ALMS, AIX, DP, FIA GT etc... They're using what they call E slits now. No holes at all. Ever. Holes are "classic". (Message edited by M1Combat on January 08, 2014) (Message edited by M1Combat on January 08, 2014) | ||
| M1combat |
"and much better in wet weather. " So... Does this rotor work so much better in wet weather because you are using tires that have so much grip in the wet that you can't lock the front brake with the stock rotor... Or because they heat up faster/more in the brake zone... Or because you're racing with SOO much rain (that somehow sticks, in copious quantity, to a spinning rotor) that the stock rotor can't evacuate it? I'm not saying the stock XB brakes are the best brakes ever (they could be upgraded at least by going to an 8 piston caliper and a slotted rotor IMO... Maybe even a cooling duct) but I have tested them in the rain. Hard. Many times. Even in slush and snow. They have ALWAYS significantly outperformed the grip of the front tire in the rain and snow. Fade... I've faded them. Only with Lyndall Gold pads though. Never with EBC HH pads. | ||
| Easyrider |
The Galfer rotors are made specificly and exclusivly for Twin Motorcycles only. We developed all rotors for all Buell models from 1984-2010 to keep you on the road with Galfer. We have 1 year full warranty unlimited miles. Not even EBR or Braking will give you that warranty. All braked products can be found here: http://www.twinmotorcycles.nl/webshop/index.asp?gu id=YXHFSC&cid=9769 | ||
| Trojan |
Fade... I've faded them. Only with Lyndall Gold pads though. Never with EBC HH pads I have seen stock XB brakes fade in less than three laps of Cadwell Park, Elvington, Thruxton and various other UK race circuits. I was also present when Performance Bikes magazine tested a H-D fleet Xb12R at Bruntingthorpe test track. Within 2 laps of the track (which is basically just two long straights joined by a couple of corners) the brakes were trashed. The lever came right back to the bar and the pads were shot. The journlists riding the bike could not believe how poor the brakes were and how badly the faded compared to the other bikes at the same test on the same day (BMW R1200S, Kawasaki ZX10R, KTM 990 Superduke and various press fleet hacks form other manufacturers). Wave pattern discs worked better and had less fade, but only prolonged the agony to be honest and they still faded badly a few minutes later than stock. The problem is not the discs but the pads overheating (melting would be more accurate) and the fluid boiling. I'm sure the 8 piston brake would be better, but we solved the issue permanently by fitting a Yamaha R1 front end and conventional twin disc brakes. Simple  Our race bike was at the same test at Bruntinghtorpe and was run all day with no problems at all. Pretty much everyone there (all VERY experienced road testers and racers) scratched their heads as to why Buell persisted with the brakes they had. | ||
| Greg_e |
So is the heat related fade due to pads, rotors, or caliper? | ||
| M1combat |
It's odd the Buell ZTL doesn't work in the UK... You keep telling everyone that you had all kinds of problems with the ZTL system so you replaced it. That's too bad. There are MANY more racers who don't have issues with them. Maybe V1 wasn't perfect but moving to the ZTL 2 and a rotor that pulls more (not less) heat from the pads along with a cooling duct "seems" to have solved any problems that properly fast racers may have been having. I say "may" because I wouldn't doubt that IF Buell were experiencing the issues you did they may not be too open about it. But... I don't recall any times where the AMA guys pulled out for an unknown reason that was never later figured out. I seem to recall they did OK over here... One note though... I'm not comparing the Galfer rotor to anything else really. I'm just laying out my concerns about drilled rotors in general and big arsed holes are included in that. The EBR rotor will work better than the old Buell rotor or the Galfer rotor. It solves the issues the right way... not the wrong way. I have no doubt that the galfer rotor works and I have no doubt that wave tech works also. I just figure for a few bucks more one can get what is obviously the best rotor for our bikes and directly from the factory to boot. That said... I really appreciate the fact that we have choices and I really appreciate what Twin Motorcycles means to the Buell community in general. I admit that most (like 99% or more) people won't ever bring any brakes to any failure mode. I suppose I just feel the same way about it as when we started seeing all kinds of engine mounted sliders. Sure, some are better than others and are less likely to do damage but the fact is... The frame pucks along with axle sliders is the "right" solution. Engine mounted sliders are destruction waiting to happen. The song remains the same though. Holes in rotors is a classic way of doing it. Make a slotted wave rotor and I'd be happy to buy one. I'm in need of a rotor anyway... | ||
| Easyrider |
Galfer uses only 420 or 410 stainless steel for all brake rotors and it’s all about the memory! What do we mean by that? Metals have memory which means that when you heat up a piece of metal and it expands, good memory characteristics allow it to go back to its original shape without much deformation from the original shape. It’s as simple as this: It goes back to it’s original shape and specs faster. Laser cut vs. stamping Stamping is great when you are doing mass production of tens of thousands of rotors. This is because the stamp itself is VERY expensive to make, but after the initial expense, it can quickly produce rotors that are relatively good quality. On the other hand, laser cutting requires minimal initial expense other than a few hours programming time to make sure the laser follows the desired pattern. This allows you to easily and cheaply change the design after testing if the need arises. Because the programming time is all that is required for a completely new prototype, Galfer has the ability to do small batches of custom rotors to meet the needs of our clients. Galfer can do an infinite number of combinations of diameter, bolt fixing pattern and Wave® pattern. We can even cut your company logo or name into a rotor design. Laser cutting provides the most consistent cut quality and leaves the rotor substantially flatter than stamping. Why the Wave® pattern? Admit it! You’re interested in Galfer Waves because they look cool! We like the way they look as well but believe it or not, there is quite a bit of thought that went into our patented technology. On a normal round rotor, the leading edge (think toe-in) of the brake pad is in contact with the entire height of the blade as the pressure is applied. Because the contact covers the entire height of the blade heat buildup takes much less time to occur and you end up with heat related problems like brake fade, thermal lockup, and inconsistent braking performance. What the Wave® pattern does is take that leading edge of contact between the blade and pad and constantly move it up and down, thus minimizing heat build up and its inherent problems. Cool air is also introduced in greater amounts. In addition, through centrifugal force, any foreign matter is thrown clear of the outer rim of the blade and doesn’t get lodged in the pad material What about the other companies making Wave® style rotors? Galfer has patented the “non round” rotors. We have USA patent #6,386,340 and European patent #99500110.4 At the time of this writing, Magura AND Stan’s No-tubes are the only companies which have an official license of our patents. No one else! There are other companies who are in production of “Wave®” style rotors who are in negotiations with us to license the design and there are a few that are just trying to get away with ignoring the patent. Not very Kosher if you ask us. And then there are companies producing rotors that look somewhat “Wave®-like” but they don’t have any of the technical merit of a true Wave® design. | ||
| Trojan |
So is the heat related fade due to pads, rotors, or caliper? difficult to say, we had problems with and changed all 3 with little change. We had some race pads and discs from the factory which performed no better than SBS or Braking pads and discs. We also changed to a race spec fluid with a higher boiling point, again with limited success. I'm not a scientist or metalurgist, but my suspicion is that the single calliper and disc is just not as efficient at dispersing and dissipating heat as traditional twin discs and calliper systems. This is borne out by the fact that some teams fitted cold air brake ducts to the front brakes and found less fade (as the RX now sports as standard). My argument is that there was nothing wrong with conventional brake systems such as Brembo and Nissin that made other successful manufacturers consider anything else. When we put a standard R1 brake setup (the 'old' blue dot callipers not radial ones), with SBS race pads all the problems we had suffered with brakes disappeared overnight. We ran a whole season with less new pads than we used to use in 2 weekends before with absolutley no brake fade and superb performance! I know we may have gained some unsprung weight (although you may be surprised at how light modern twin calliper brakes are) but handling didn't suffer and performance was better, especially inconjunction with the R1 forks fitted with reactive Suspension cartridge inserts. | ||
| M1combat |
I'm not even sure how Eslick survived this session with brakes that don't work... Especially while making so many passes on the brakes... On Blake Young who rides a Yosh Suzuki... Neither of which are slow. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qetWxMAHVqU Yeah... I understand that this wasn't the case every race but at the other races it was NOT the brakes holding them back (pun fully intended)... It was HP. Pure and simple. With regards to nothing being wrong with other brake systems... You're right. They work great. Can you tell me how much money has been spent over the last ten years by HoSukYamaKaw trying to find ways to reduce un-sprung mass? OK... You probably can't. That's OK... I have no way of checking on it myself. Would you be willing to say that they DO likely spend money trying to reduce un-sprung mass? After all they do tend to advertise weight savings on the un-sprung bits so they must feel it's worth SOMETHING right? If so... How much do you think they would pay to have reduced it by the amount that Buell did? (assuming their brakes would still work as well as they do) So there IS a point maybe? So... now that Buell has what by all accounts (excepting yours for the time being...) appear to be working brakes that are ALSO a few pounds lighter than the competition what's your problem? Oh yeah... you sell brake parts. Never mind. | ||
| Easyrider |
Nice spoken M1combat | ||
| Trojan |
So... now that Buell has what by all accounts (excepting yours for the time being...) appear to be working brakes that are ALSO a few pounds lighter than the competition what's your problem? I have no problem with the current EBR 8 pot brakes with air scoops etc, as they do seem to work. The original 6 pot brakes work too so long as you don't give thenm a hard time on track. However if you have followed MA racing closely you will also know that EBR had brake problems in AMA racing at least once last year if I remember correctly, so they are not perfect yet. The Japanese companies are not the ones spending huge money on brake development, but Brembo and Nissin are. They have probably spent millions developing brakes that work extremely well, don't affect hadnling adversely and are cost effective. They are also certainly good enough for MotoGP and WSB. In which case why do we need to try and re-invent the wheel? There are lots of technical innovations that should work very well (hub centre steering for one) but just don't translate to real world motorcycles quite as well, so despite the list of advantages offered by funny front ends we all stick to 'traditional' front forks. The same is true of various brake systems on offer and they may offer advantages in weight but don't brake as well as standard offerings. By the way, If it was just a case of wanting to sell brake parts then I would suirely have soldiered on with the parts I sell for street use rather than go to the expense of fitting a complete front end to our race bike (that we do not sell!) in order to get better braking performance in racing. My argument is simply this. There really was no need to invent anything that was not already available and that worked very well. You can argue with me all you like, but I (and others) have real life track experience and evidence of using both ZTL1 and 'traditional' brake types in racing, and would take a set of decent Brembos (as fitted to just about every other superbike in the world) any day thanks. Just my opinion though, what do I know. | ||
| Aschem |
I am no brake expert but I have been thinking about changing the front brake to a ZTL2 setup on my 07Stt. I ride up in the mountains here in SE Idaho, I am not racing, just enjoying the winding roads. Any thoughts on changing to ZTL2, I don't have a have tons of money so if it something that isn't needed I would be happy to here from people who know Buell brakes. | ||
| Froggy |
Aschem, I would stick with stock in your situation. Yes the ZTL2 is better in every regard, but if you are not having any performance issues with the ZTL1 then you are spending money that could be used elsewhere. If you find a killer deal on a caliper and master cylinder then go for it, otherwise I'd stick to stock. | ||
| Mmcn49 |
I live in Western Washington, (Puget Sound) and own two 07TT’s. Both had pulsing issues with the 5mm stock rotors. Replaced them with 6mm rotors from EBR and had no issues since. Everything else is stock. Like you I don’t race but do spend as much time as possible in the mountains and twisties. Feel that what I have now is far more than adequate for the riding I do. | ||
| Aschem |
Thanks for the advice. I had some pulsating issues that were resolved by cleaning rotors and changing pads. Currently have Lyndall pads on the bike and no problems. | ||
| Scotty2hotteee |
What's a good method to clean the rotors? Sandpaper and brake cleaner? | ||
| Aschem |
I think I used emery cloth 320 or 400 grit and brake cleaner on rotor only. |
