| Author | Message | ||
     Gregoxb |
I was wondering if anyone is running this battery in their XB... http://www.erikbuellracing.com/store/models/xb12/l ightweight-nano-teck-battery.html The EBR Nanoteck sells for $390 but I found this one for $189... http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/14/70/943/400 97/DPITEM/Street-Motorcycle-Batteries-Ballistic-EV O2-Battery.aspx I was wondering if anyone is running either of these batteries and what do you think of them. | ||
| Slaughter |
I run the Shorai - zero difficulty. | ||
| Ericz |
I run the Alien Motion 12 cell battery, which is exactly the same as the Ballistic 12 cell. It starts the bike great when it is warm(air temp) but requires 1 or 2 attempts if it is below 65 degrees or so. I would buy the 16 cell if I did it again. | ||
| Ducbsa |
The original battery in my '07 with 17k is showing signs of pooping out. I may just go with one again in the Spring. | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
I wouldn't bother with any non-standard lead/acid design unless you're actually racing it and 12 pounds would be noticed. | ||
| Gregoxb |
The Alien motion looks cool, and at $159 its even cheaper than a 12 cell Ballistic, and LESS than half the price of the EBR Nanoteck. What's the deal with EBR charging almost $400 dollars for theirs? Is it better or something? Or is it the same exact battery waaaay overpriced? | ||
| Gregoxb |
The EBR Nanoteck says its a 4.5 Amp-hour, 300 Amp peak draw. Leading me to believe its about an 8-cell battery. For $390!! The Alien Motion 8 cell is a 4.4 amp-hour battery with 250+ Amp Average output. For $129. Or the Alien Motion 12 Cell has 6.6 Amp-Hours and Average output of 340+ Amps. Cost $160. The Ballistic Evo batteries seem to be slightly more powerful, but also about ~$20 more expensive cell for cell on average than the Alien Motion batteries. So IDK what the deal is with the EBR nanoteck. $390 for essentially the same battery is ludicrous. | ||
| Ericz |
It's all about production numbers. I'm sure many fewer EBR batteries are made than any of the other brands. That has a big impact on cost. Also, Alien Motion and Ballistic batteries use the same configurations so unless they are using different cells inside the battery pack (unlikely since they look identical) they will have about the same output. | ||
| Gregoxb |
Cool, so that sorted, Alien Motion is the way to go if you're interested in a lithium battery. At $130-$160 that is a totally feasible AND you shave 10-12 lbs off the bike. IMO at that price you would have to spend $1000 in carbon fiber pieces to equal that weight savings. Plus if you are a technology enthusiast its right up your alley. From what Ericz and some Buell reviewers on the MotorcycleSuperStore Website have written, the Lithium battery seems to work just as effectively as a standard lead/acid battery in the Buell. Obviously I know its not for everyone, but I think I will be buying one as a replacement, since my old lead/acid battery fused with the contact screw and snapped off when I was removing it for winter storage. | ||
| Greg_e |
For lead acid I would suggest the Scorpion battery from Batterystuff.com. When I tested the one I received it would hold a 700 amp crank for 10 seconds, and did this three times in a row. Tested with a Schumacher 100 amp battery tester, not the most accurate device but the Scorpion tested way higher and way longer than the Shorai and the old Harley batteries I had sitting here. The old Harley that has been run down several times and left out in the freezing temperatures last winter tested 200 amps the same number of times. I won't speak of the Shorai because I think the company's support system after purchase really SUCKS. All tests done on batteries about 50 degrees F after a fresh charge to what my charger said was full and allowing the surface charge to deplete. One thing to note is the actual amp hour rating of the cells (not the lead acid equiv.). Remember that your fan will run for up to several minutes after you shut off the cycle, this would drain my brief use of the Shorai to what Shorai said was the empty voltage, I then had problems starting the cycle and ended up with a shorter season because I was concerned it would leave me stranded. The only time the Shorai worked as advertised was short little hops that got the charge back up but would not get the fan running on shutdown. I would only recommend this type of battery for racing use despite what others recommend. For racing where you can through it on a charger between races this technology is certainly the easiest way to remove 10 pounds of weight. I would strongly suggest at least 4 sets in parallel (16 cells or 4s4p) in a street machine to try and get the reserve capacity up where it needs to be. This should be about 11 real amp hours of power. I'm almost certain the Alien and other cylindrical cells are 2800mah cells and Alien claims to use A123 which is no longer A123 since that part was sold. (Message edited by Greg_E on December 29, 2012) (Message edited by Greg_E on December 29, 2012) | ||
| Gregoxb |
So I was reading and found out Ballistic recommends running a 16 cell battery in ALL Buells whether you have an S1, 1125, or an XB9/12. A 16 cell Lithium ranges $269-$300. Now my next question would be, do lithium batteries require tenderizing and proper winter storage? If they require less maintainence than a lead/acid battery that may still justify the price. | ||
| Gregoxb |
So Greg_e... the Ballistic 16 cell battery advertises 9.2 amp hours. Do you think that would be sufficient to run the electrical demands of the Buells (specifically XB 12) without losing power or leaving you stranded? | ||
| Gregoxb |
The Alien Motion advertises a capacity of 12 amp hours on their 16 cell... also priced at $269 | ||
| Greg_e |
Ballistic is either using smaller cells or under rating their cells. The Alien motion is probably fairly accurate for these cells, but probably slightly rounded up where I rounded down to 11 amps. For proper winter storage they all suggest charge (or discharge) to 80%, let it get down to about 30% and charge back up to 80%. That said if you bring it inside and charge to 80% it will probably only be down to 50% when you want to start riding again so it may not ever need the full cycle. Some companies claim they never need balance charging, others say it is good for storage, I can't remember if the Alien have a balance tap on them. I would get in writing the ability to send back for full refund if not satisfied on any Lithium package that is not made specifically for race only use. The chances you end up back on a lead acid are just too high to not have that guarantee in your hand. It's neat to be able to hold up the Lithium battery without difficulty, but going back to lead acid seems like it makes the most sense. You can get the Scorpion for $80 shipped in two to three days (priority mail). The first one I got was bad and after a short discourse they sent me a new one and told me to just recycle the defective one so I didn't even have to pay return shipping. Hard to beat that service. If you go for one of these, the Alien seems to be the best choice. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I believe the EBR battery has pretty complicated built in charge management electronics. Do the batteries you are comparing also have that? You won't see the difference over the short term, but long term it will make a huge difference in cell life span. | ||
| Greg_e |
No they do not have any electronics in them to self balance or over overcharge/low voltage cut off. | ||
| Ericz |
The Alien Motion and Ballistic batteries all have balance charger hook ups. While the electronics are not built into the pack, the balancing can be performed with an external device. I bought the balancing charger from Alien Motion along with my battery and have used it a few times. Balancing the cells is ideal for these battery packs but not necessary. It is comparable to using a battery tender/trickle charger on a lead acid battery. It only helps to optimize the performance and extend the life of the pack. | ||
| Reepicheep |
It is hard to compare the technology (and fragility) of a lithium ion technology to lead acid. Lead acid is heavy and has limited storage capacity, but is very resilient. Look up the proper charge characteristics for a lithium ion charging circuit, it is VERY complicated, you pretty much need a closed loop computer algorithm to be able to do it. Lithium polymer is a bit more durable, but still needs a proper charge profile to give the rated life of the cells. Not using the right charge profile will shorten the life of the cells, often dramatically. | ||
| Gregoxb |
Alien Motion says that their batteries can be charged quickly over 15 minutes, or if you have more time you can use a balance charger which does not charge as quickly, but it will charge and balance all your batteries cells, ensuring complete charging and health of your cells. Alien Motion also claims their batteries have a very low discharge rate. Meaning they will not lose significant power when they are not in use. Which is good for long term storage of the vehicle as long as there is no draw on the battery. I'll tell you I have already burned through my OEM battery in about 2 years, and the Harley battery I replaced it with wouldn't crank my bike over in 30 degree weather, plus it fused with the connection screws. I am about ready to try something new. I will most likely get the balance charger with the 16 cell Lithium, it sounds pretty easy to use. I don't know how long the battery will last me, but maybe Ericz can chime in on how long your Alien Motion has been serving you effectively. (Aside from regretting that you didn't buy a 16 cell) | ||
| Reepicheep |
The problem with the external balancing charger is that unless you are running a full loss electrical system (which unless you are racing, you aren't), then the bike is charging the battery. The bike has been engineered to charge a lead acid battery, which has completely different "safe charging" curves than any of the lithium chemistry batteries. The battery makers selling the Li batteries without the smart charging built in to the batteries are betting that the damage done is slow and so the loss of battery durability is offset by the lower initial cost. In many ways, they may be right, particularly with some of the newer more durable Li chemistries. But smart charging really does make a big difference in the overall lifespan of the battery... | ||
| Froggy |
Reepi is correct, and being that the EBR battery has load balancing, overvolt protection, etc, all built into the battery, it has a higher price but in theory should last longer than the cheaper alternatives. Also, the EBR battery is safe to use on a street bike due to those protections. If your voltage regulator fails and starts dumping 20+ volts into the battery, the EBR unit will be fine, while the cheaper ones run a risk of exploding. The EBR battery has a hard plastic case protecting the cells and circuitry, while the cheaper batteries are just bare cells shrink-wrapped together. The EBR battery is the only Lithium battery to come stock on any production vehicle as far as I know, which means it passed real world durability tests and other procedures to make it a street legal part. (Message edited by Froggy on January 02, 2013) | ||
| Reepicheep |
Dang, I didn't even think about what would happen in the case of a VR failure. That could go *really* wrong. | ||
| Gregoxb |
What happens when your voltage regulator fails and you start dumping 20+ volts into a lead-acid battery? | ||
| Panhead_dan |
it will boil it dry at the very least | ||
| Froggy |
Lead batteries are not fragile, you can really abuse them without a huge risk of something bad happening. Even in a worst case scenario, they don't normally catch fire. You will fry your ECM long before a lead battery decides it will have no more. | ||
| Gregoxb |
The EBR nanoteck may have the overvolt protection and load balancing, but it is only an 8 cell battery, and people are complaining of not getting enough kick from their 12 cell. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I don't know what the manufacturer standards are, but "cell" is not any kind of standard unit of measure. The chemistry implies that X cells will put out more voltage than X-1 cells (the voltage a cell puts out is determined by physics), but the current one cell it is capable of delivering can range from near zero to hundreds of amps, depending on how the cell was made. So number of cells may happen to be a reasonable correlation to starting power for some cases, but if it does, it's an accident. | ||
| Greg_e |
No it is not an accident. In order to get the correct voltage one needs to gather four 3.3 volt cells (for this lithium chemistry) in series (13.2 volts) additional cells must then be added in parallel to provide additional current. Most of the motorcycle batteries use ~2.6 to ~2.8ah cells, so an eight cell (4serial 2parallel) would be 13.2 volts and around 5.6ah, 12 cells (4s3p) starts getting into a reasonable amount of power at somewhere in the 6ah to 8ah range, and the recommended 16 cell package (4s4p) up into around 12ah. These cells typically can discharge at up to 30C, which means they can discharge for up to 30 times their base current rating (360amps for the 16 cell pack). Not sure what lead/acid will produce for maximum discharge, but I think it is a lot higher than 30C. | ||
| Gregoxb |
So I don't get it. The Ballistic 16 cell advertises 500 CCA. The Scorpion lead/acid advertises 260 CCA. So in theory, wouldn't the Ballistic start your bike with more authority in 30 degree weather than the Scorpion? | ||
| Reepicheep |
Power is voltage times current. If you don't have both, you won't start. Of the two, amps is probably a better reference, as it's much harder to produce many amps than it is to produce many volts. They may line up, but shopping on "number of cells" is going to eventually get you in trouble. I could build a cheap 20 cell battery out of surplus camera parts that would make plenty of volts but that would be lucky to produce 2 amps. Cold cranking amps is a much more reliable metric for comparison. |
