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Mesozoic
| | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 06:32 pm: | 
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BTW, I'm from BC and so is my bike, so similar climate. My bike ran like crap from the factory, I had to tune the crap out of it to get it run properly. I think Buell really failed in the tuning department getting these bikes to run properly with EFI, but if you spend the time tuning it, it'll work really good. Mine starts and runs good anywhere, any temperature, any elevation, any humidity, but it did take several years of datalogging and tuning to get there. I suppose I bought the bike knowing this, as I'm an avid tuner of a lot of other engines. Hate to say it, but it's the way it is. |
Cycledoc59
| | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 07:01 pm: |
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"Open loop defeats the purpose of EFI"?
Really? Many EFI systems were without
O2 sensors for many years, and worked
just fine. Closed loop is all about emissions,
not about running properly.
I ran my 1125 awhile stock, and it was
tough to live with. With the bike fueling
correctly, and the O2 sensors unplugged,
it, and I, are very happy. Plus it usually gets about
45 mpg. Better than stock. |
Mesozoic
| | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 07:39 pm: |
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Closed loop is certainly about reducing emissions, but it's also about increasing fuel efficiency. When you're cruising, you want your engine to be closed loop because you'll save on fuel big time. That means cleaner plugs, cleaner piston crowns, etc. Closed loop also means that if the engine has a problem and is running too lean or too rich, the computer will target the defined stoichiometric AFR based on the readings it's getting from the O2, temperature, and other sensors. That's all closed loop is, it's just using one or more sensors' inputs and closing the engine control loop to be based around their readings.
Tuning open loop is very important for WOT operation as well as cold start and warmup, situations where the O2 sensor readings aren't going to be useful immediately (they're heated sensors and take time to warmup). Sure, you can run any motor in open loop, but you're sacrificing fuel efficiency and computer diagnostics that might be helpful in pinpointing a problem. |
Panhead_dan
| | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 07:54 pm: |
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This thread has taken an interesting turn!
I knew nothing about this electronic jet kit thingie before now. I had always been under the impression that piggyback units like PC3 and others would not work on the Buell EFI system. It seems like if they do work, or if this one works, it would be better than a hamfisted moron with a laptop and no knowledge of ECMSPY (like me) screwing up the ECM. |
Fast1075
| | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 08:27 pm: |
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Interesting that JD Jetting came up. When I built my 'Tard, a friend recommended that I give them a call because I was having trouble finding jets and needles and such. A few minutes on the phone and three days later I got a kit that had hand written instructions. I set the carb up as instructed, ran three plug chops and found it running perfectly. I highly recommend JD Jetting. |
Cycledoc59
| | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 09:23 pm: |
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@Panhead_dan makes a very good
point. Unless you are into racing;
got deep pockets/etc, it sure is
nice not to have to download/hookup/
fiddle with programing to get a bike
to fuel correctly. For most of us, it's
serious overkill.
@Mesozoic, my old Harley w/open loop (mfg as
open loop) and a Techlusion ran just peachy and
did a nice 50+mpg. Probably polluted a bit.
And, once again, my 1125 runs great at
all logical speeds, plus delivers better
mileage than most; all in open loop.(I
tried it both ways, and it "carburates"
a lot better open...) Now, the XB; don't
know, may try when I think of it.
In closed loop, the computer can "fight"
with the EJK. The EJK adds fuel, and the
computer want to stay on map. Such was the
case with the 1125. Unplugging the sensors
solved the problem.
} |
Littlebuggles
| | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 09:43 pm: |
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I'm gonna pick up a gently used Palm TX tomorrow, $50 or so, then load ECMSpy on it and ham fist the hell out of my ECM.
Hopefully I don't create any huge problems.
If I can make it work, well, I'll be stoked. The dealership said they'd reset my TPS for .7 hours labor, and the same for fixing fuel ratios from running the bike out of gas. So roughly $125 out the door.
I tried to download ECMSpy, and my credit card company freaked, denied the charge and called me about two min later. This sort of thing makes it feel like my XB is more trouble than it's worth.
Now I'll need to build another data cable if the standard USB part won't work with the palm... but just maybe I can do the whole data logging thing and make the bike work great up here in the cold Utah mountains. |
Mesozoic
| | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 11:08 pm: |
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Tuning the XB is actually really fun. PM me if you need a hand with anything. |
Firemanjim
| | Posted on Friday, February 17, 2012 - 01:04 am: |
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Buggles--they want to charge you to reset your AFV? Cuz running it out usually causes a lean condition that the ecm tries to compensate for by adding fuel--so bike will be rich when filled back up. Taking it out and riding it will do the same thing.Seriously, with ECM-Spy you could do that is less than 5 minutes. |
Mtkawboy
| | Posted on Friday, February 17, 2012 - 06:36 pm: |
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Thats all well & good for you computer guys but us dumasses arent so good at that stuff. I can work at a computer until something goes wrong, then Im dead in the water |
Mesozoic
| | Posted on Friday, February 17, 2012 - 06:48 pm: |
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Just don't do anything wrong with the computer then. 
Seriously though, I think the best bet is to fix any driveability issues yourself. It can be done, as many others on the forums have proven. It'll be a lot more satisfying to fix it yourself, you'll learn more about it so you'll be more comfortable doing more complicated adjustments in the future, and you won't have to pay some other dumass to try to fix it for you. There's no way I'd trust a HD dealership tech to give it a shot. Just ask the right questions and you'll get good answers from here. |
Mtkawboy
| | Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2012 - 06:27 pm: |
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Ill probably end up doing that or hauling it to NHRS ,I just have visions of smoke rising from the computer & everything going dark |
Littlebuggles
| | Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2012 - 07:46 pm: |
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LOL!! I've never physically burned-up a computer yet, but I sure wonder what I'm doing with them sometimes.
Willis, I will see if I can make my bike work, if I can maybe I can help you out. Billings isn't really that far from Salt Lake, and I've not done a road trip on a bike in a while.
'puter was working poorly, so I took it in for a tune up. Over half the capacitors were bulging, so not only was it software problems, but hardware was done too... so I opted to just upgrade to a faster (used) laptop rather than spend several hundred tuning up the old busted 'puter.
Now I'll try and get ahold of ECMSpy software again and reset fuel ratios and tps and see where I go from there. Still need to get the Palm data cables so I can modify one for using that thing for tuning, but in the mean time I hope to make the bike rideable. |
Mesozoic
| | Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2012 - 11:58 pm: |
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You know, you can use TunerPro to datalog and everything now. I prefer editing my maps and tables in TunerPro over anything else, although I use ECMRead (Mono) to fetch and burn bins.
I think that if I had access to the code for the Buell plugin for Tunerpro, I could probably polish it up pretty nicely. |
Mtkawboy
| | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2012 - 05:49 pm: |
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This might sound really stupid but is it possable to just buy a modified map from someone like NHRS ? Go ahead & laugh now if you want. I wasnt kidding when I said I wasnt puter savy or Buell savy. I can put a cam in my 95 Fatboy, rebuild a Triumph 650, or build KZ1000 engines and was an ASE certified mechanic about 35 years ago |
Littlebuggles
| | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2012 - 10:50 pm: |
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It would be cool if you could send your ECM off somewhere and have that done. I considered buying the EBR module to try and fix my bike with that thinking in mind... but according to their website a TPS reset is needed as well with the new ECM... so you still gotta get that done, either by using one of the various software applications, or by a dealership. So you are still at their mercy if it's gotta be done.
Local dealer used to deal with Buell, and said they could do it for me, but I'd rather be able to do it for myself. |
Mtkawboy
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2012 - 05:43 pm: |
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I have a lead on a former Buell dealer in Belgrade Mt that has all the stuff & knows their way around Buells, thats only 150 miles away. Ive been told to wait until summer though to have it done or it wont be right. CV carbs are as simple as lawn mower carbs, I dont get this FIBS |
Panhead_dan
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2012 - 07:11 pm: |
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FIBS.
I like that. Can I use that?
I don't like it either. |
Firemanjim
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2012 - 02:26 pm: |
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Wait for summer---does NOT sound like they know there way around Buells!
Willis, do you have a laptop? If you do get ECM Spy loaded on it, get the cable from Al Lighton, call me and I will walk you through every step. |
Mtkawboy
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2012 - 06:33 pm: |
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No, I dont but if I wait until after April 15th I can use the one my wife has her tax programs on, she's a CPA. Ill contact you then if its still a problem, thanks. A guy that does Harleys but not Buells told me that about waiting until summer. People that are full of sh$t should have a light on their forehead that blinks when they talk |
Mesozoic
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2012 - 10:55 pm: |
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I'll walk you through the process of reading, modifying your binary to correct problems, and writing the binary back to the ECM once you've got a machine and a cable. |
Mtkawboy
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2012 - 06:51 pm: |
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Thanks to you both and to everyone else for their advice.....Woody |
Littlebuggles
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2012 - 06:17 pm: |
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Willis, any new developments on the XB? If I can get this stuff sorted maybe I could mail my palm and cable to you for the TPS reset and tuning.
FMJ, can I call you and talk to you about what numbers I'm seeing on my ECMSpy software? I'm using a laptop right now, still need to do the Palm data cable, have not had time to work on it, but I might get to it in a day or three depending on what sort of interference life throws at me. |
Mmcn49
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2012 - 03:24 pm: |
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Like Dan said this is interesting. I especially enjoy reading tuning related threads! With comments from Mike-X and several other people on 3-Blogs, here is an outline of what I did to finally get my two 07 TT’s to run almost perfectly.
These were my first ECM-Fuel Injected Bikes and as an “Official Old Fart” I didn’t have the luxury of growing up with computers. Until I read several technical books on ECM/FI tuning, changes I made with the original ECMSpy were only moderately successful.
NOTE: The first ECMSpy is intuitive and fairly easy to use; all you have to do is play with it for awhile.
1. Replaced the NB o2 with an LC-1 controller & WB o2. The stock Air Fuel ratio on the LC-1 is 14.55 to 1. Even though it’s only a little richer than the stock NB it makes a huge difference. Also set the switching rate to 12 times per second.
2. Installed a UNI foam air filter.
3. Wired the exhaust valve open.
With ECMSpy:
4. Modified the fuel and timing maps for granularity.
5. In 3D view “Smoothed and Averaged” the fuel maps, eliminating the “Mid Range Lean Dip” completely. (Got rid of the peaks and valleys). Did the Square Idle adjustment. Changed the bottom TPS row cell values from 4000 RPM on up to 25, changed the second row to 28.
6. Ended up using the stock timing maps for the most part. Added 9 degrees to the first three columns of the bottom two rows on the front timing table. Added 7 degrees to the first three columns of the bottom two rows on the rear timing table.
7. Greatly reduced the surface area of Closed Loop Learn, (Red Line). Also reduced Closed Loop area.
8. In the ECM Config Tab, unchecked “idle closed loop enable”. Set oxygen sensor voltages to 0.61, 0.52 and 0.41.
9. In the Other Maps Tab set Default Open Loop Corr. to 113%. Open Loop Enrich delay to 0.
10. In the Diagnostics Tab under Byte 5, unchecked all the “21” exhaust valve actuator codes.
On one of the bikes the AFV stays around 100. When it does change it’s only by 1 or 2 points. The other bike varies by 4 or 5. Both run great and mileage dropped by less than 2 MPG.
IMHO I think money; ($200) would be better spent on an LC-1 & WB instead of the electronic jets. |
Firemanjim
| | Posted on Friday, April 06, 2012 - 02:16 pm: |
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Buggles call anytime, at shop nearly every weekday. 707 996-6103. |
Littlebuggles
| | Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2012 - 08:15 pm: |
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Jim, I'm getting a disconnected message when I try to call you?
"Help me Obi-wan, you are our only hope". |
Littlebuggles
| | Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2012 - 08:20 pm: |
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Here's my thread regarding my fueling problems in the kv:
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/384 2/670462.html?1334875250 |
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