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Trojan
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 07:48 am: | 
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BUELL..DID NOT.. INVENT THE PERIMETER BRAKE SYSTEM THAT IS USED . THEY ARE SICOM PERIMETER BRAKES FROM GERMANY.
Yes and No.
Perimeter brakes had been designed and used prior to the Buell ZTL applictaion.
Italian company Braking had them on the market before the Buell released the XB models and they were fitted as standard to certain Ghezzi & Brian models in the 1990's. You could even buy a dual perimeter setup for the old tube frame Buells and Reg Kitrell tested such a setup in Battletwin magazine many years ago.
Contrary to Court's assertion that these never worked, they worked very well at braking (at least as well as the ZTL), but were not seen as a substantial improvement over what was already available from Brembo etc. They were heavier than the Buell system and a lot more expensive to produce, which is the major reason why more mainstream manufacturers didn't use them.
The mounting system may have been different to the ZTL but they were definitely perimeter brakes and they worked.
SICOM had no input into the ZTL system but have developed a ceramic compound disc and pads that can be used with the ZTL2 caliper.
Prior to this SICOM had a dual disc conversion available to fit the XB range and this was used extensively in Buell racing in Europe by both Ilmberger and Buell Bonn race teams. Ilmberger continued to use the SICOM ZTL kit until they stopped racing the 1125 and switched to BMW last year. Their BMW racer also uses SICOM brakes.
SICOM have been making performance car braking systems for Ferari/Porsche etc for years but only offer a limited amount of kits for bikes. They are very expensive but the difference between their ceramic brakes and steel is night and day.
For Buell fitment you have to have your ZTL2 caliper machined to accept SICOM pads.
(Message edited by trojan on June 24, 2011) |
Davegess
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 10:35 am: |
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The ZTL deal is not so much about the perimeter brake but what this did to the wheel design.
What Buell invented was a mounting system, why it is significant is because they looked at the entire system and realized that with this mounting system you could make a very light front wheel. The other perimeter systems worked but there was no real clear advantage to using them so why bother. The ZTL allowed a significant reduction in rotating, unsprung mass. This is a huge advantage over conventional systems.
So Buell did not invent the perimeter brake BUT they figured out how make it improve the motorcycle. |
Loud_and_low
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 11:21 am: |
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Wow, see how much we can learn with a simple question. Great history lesson here. Thanks guys.
Gearhead, Erik Buell Racing also suggested those pads. Seems like a logical first choice, and cheaper than a complete swap out. Thanks for the suggestion. |
Court
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 11:25 am: |
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>>>>Reg Kitrell tested such a setup in Battletwin magazine many years ago.
Contrary to Court's assertion that these never worked, they worked very well at braking (at least as well as the ZTL),
Reg Kittrelle's observation, and I'd have to go back and look to confirm, was that there was no benefit to the braking system. (NOTE: That may be inaccurate. It's what I recall. But, if it's wrong Reg won't hesitate to set me straight)
Putting the brake on the perimeter, and doing nothing else, does nothing to help, and likely hinders (as do dual rotors) the physics of stopping a motorcycle.
What Buell DID do was look at the entire SYSTEM and say "what can we do to make better motorcycle brakes?" . . not "what looks catching and could be a basis for marketing hype?".
Honda had been spending millions trying to shed a couple pounds off their race wheels. They never even came close to where the very Buell you now ride on the street is.
Since Buell (who "invented" enough to be granted a patent) has been able to accumulate a great deal of data. It helped when they won a championship in their first year of racing and collected information from Danny Eslick.
The topic has been cussed, recussed and discussed since the day Buell first showed the ZTL system. The point of the instant thread, that SICOM "invented", or for that matter had anything to do with, the perimeter rim brake has been debunked.
I see now that Ducati is busy "inventing" placing the airbox and muffler in locations that make the greatest sense from an engineering perspective.
The more Ducati and Honda watch Buell . . . the more they "invent".
I had to flunk a student this year who similarly invented, with the help of Google, his final. . . I guess it's contagious . . . this "invention by acclimation". |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 05:49 pm: |
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The Sicom products are not brake "system", just a disk and pads engineered to fit the OEM Buell brake albeit with calipers machined to accept the thicker ceramic rotor. Wicked cool rotors.
Buell indeed did invent the one and only perimeter brake/wheel system that reduced unsprung mass by 40%, ships on OEM motorcycles, and has won a national roadracing championship and won races against open class superbikes.
Stay tuned for more. |
Court
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 06:45 pm: |
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Buell? . . . you mean the first company that ever sold a production bike with a braided brake line. .. or the first manufacturer to use inverted forks?
Ohhhhhhhhhhh. . . . . . .
Funny how that DOT Whip Test has proven the Achilles heel for so many . .
quote:Buell's design also utilised the engine as a fully stressed member of the frame. Capping the engineering firsts was Buell's use of a rear suspension mounted beneath the motor and a shock that operated in reverse of the conventional compression-rebound practice. A total of 50 RR1000 models were produced during 1987-88 before the remaining XR1000 engines were depleted.
Buell saw the new 1203cc Harley-Davidson Evolution engine as an opportunity to continue tuning the performance and handling qualities of his bikes. With that in mind, he began redesigning the chassis to accommodate the 1203. The resulting RR1200 model was introduced during 1988, and 65 were produced for sale through 1989. Streamlining and bodywork had been a particular talent and passion for Erik Buell. Thus, his motorcycles continued to change at a measured pace through the years. In 1989, he introduced the RS1200, a two-seat version of the RR model for riders who demanded both world-class performance and two-up comfort. 105 of these unique models were produced through 1990.
Five-speed transmissions were a new feature of the 1203cc engine in 1991. Buell responded to revised engine mounting points with further design improvements to the RS chassis. These bikes were the first production motorcycles to use upside-down (inverted) front forks, stainless steel braided brake lines and a six-piston front brake caliper.
As Buell motorcycles were refined, the company's manufacturing capabilities were expanded. 1991 was the first year in which Buell Motor Company not only designed bodywork, but also produced it in a new composite and paint shop. The result was greater quality control and improved design flexibility.
A single-seat version of the RS1200 was introduced late in the 1991 model year. Dubbed the RSS1200, it won enthusiastic approval of the motorcycle press for its lean, clean lines. A total of 40 units were built between March and August 1991. Combined production of RSS and RS models totalled 325 through 1993.
In 1994, Buell introduced the curvaceous Thunderbolt S2, the first model produced under the partnership with Harley-Davidson Inc. The motorcycle won rave reviews from the motorcycle press and is still known for its beautiful lines and fluid design. A sport-touring version, the S2T, was added to the line-up in 1995. The new model was named Rider Magazine's Top Innovation that season. Together, the two models combined for total sales in excess of 1,000 units.
The next year brought the introduction of the all-new 1996 Lightning S1. The original street fighter”, the Lightning S1, defined a whole new class of Hooligan motorcycles. Featuring minimal bodywork, a racing-styled seat, exposed frame and the centralised mass of the 1203cc engine, exhaust system and suspension, the model was named Hooligan Bike of the Year by Cycle World Magazine that year.
A redesign of the Thunderbolt was also introduced in 1996 as the Thunderbolt S3 and the Thunderbolt S3T. The models continued the design evolution of sport touring motorcycles. Together with the Lightning S1, the S3 and S3T combined for sales in excess of 2,000 units.
In 1997, the Cyclone M2 was introduced to the Buell line and the motorcycle industry had a new Standard class leader. With a more relaxed seating configuration and wider seat, the Cyclone helped push Buell motorcycle sales above the 3,000 unit mark.
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Jake318
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 08:05 pm: |
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Jake318 here, i meant no disrespect when I stated .. Buell did not invent the perimeter brakes that are used, they are made by Sicom.
I said this to inform people that there brakes where made by an outside company and could still be purchased and upgraded.
I have been hearing most Harley dealers have dropped Buell parts. Has anyone else heard the same ? |
Jake318
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 08:44 pm: |
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COURT SINCE YOU SEEM TO THINK IM BULL4HITTING YOU (WHY YOUR THINKING THIS I HAVNT A CLUE IM 46 NOT 16).. THE REASON THE GERMAN SUPERBIKE TEAM THAT KEEPS WINNING DOESNT USE THIS SICOM SET UP? SIMPLE: CARBON FIBER AND CERAMIC BRAKES ARE ILLEGAL IN EVERY NATIONAL SUPERBIKE SERIES IVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD OF AND CARBON/CERAMIC BRAKES ARE ALSO ILLEGAL IN THE WSB SERIES.
COURT IN THE LAST 2 YEARS I HAVE BOUGHT 29 BIKES SOLD 18. 11 ARE MY ..KEEPERS .. IF I SEE A NEW BRAKE OR SUSPENSION COMPONENT I WILL GIVE IST A TRY . RIGHT NOW I HAVE BERINGER SYYTEM ON ITS WAY FOR A 2003 HONDA RC51.DUEL 6 PISTON FRONT CALIPERS,SINGLE 2 PISTON REAR CALIPER,DUEL STAINLESS FLOATING DISKS FRONT SINGLE STAINLESS FLOATING ALTH ROTOR REAR, 20MM-16MM PISTON FRONT MASTER CYLINDERS. ARE THEY BETTER THAN BREMBO? MORE FEEL ,MORE POWER ? I DONT KNOW YET,BUT I HAVE NO BRAND LOYALTY NOR BRAND PREJUDISES AND GIVE HONEST REVIEWS... IF YOU HAVE NEVER SEEN HIGH END BREMBOCOMPONENTS GO TO OPP PERFORMANCE.COM BREMBO HAS A FRONT BRAKE MASTER CYLINDER THAT ALONE COST AROUND 5000$-6000$ |
Froggy
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 08:56 pm: |
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quote:I have been hearing most Harley dealers have dropped Buell parts. Has anyone else heard the same ?
Most Harley dealerships never carried Buell parts to start with. |
Carbonfibrebob
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 09:12 pm: |
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L&L, I bought my Nissin remote reservoir master from Dennis Kirk,
Bob |
Chessm
| | Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2011 - 03:02 am: |
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i thought suzuki brought out the 1st production bike with USD forks |
Court
| | Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2011 - 09:56 am: |
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>>>>i thought suzuki brought out the 1st production bike with USD forks
Years ago . . .roughly 15 . . . that was the subject of what seemed to be endless debate.
Apparently they had something either about ready to go in production or perhaps had done something on a race bike. Frankly, I don't recall the outcome. All the magazines attribute it to Buell.
You may want to go back and dig through the archives or study up on the 1993 or 1994 Suzuki line and see what you can find. None of the magazines ever backed off the Buel attribution but, to be honest, I don't recall. |
Spdrxb
| | Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2011 - 11:30 am: |
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OK I'm confused...
What is the argument here?
I'm just glad E'B'R is building bikes the way they want.... does it really matter, in the big picture who made what first?
(Message edited by spdrxb on June 25, 2011) |
Terrys1980
| | Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2011 - 01:14 pm: |
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I think they are trying to see who is the best at using Google.
This statement sums it all up.
So Buell did not invent the perimeter brake BUT they figured out how make it improve the motorcycle. |
Loud_and_low
| | Posted on Monday, June 27, 2011 - 07:01 am: |
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Hey Carbonfibrebob, do you have a link to that? I searched the complete Buell listing and can't find the reservoir. |
Carbonfibrebob
| | Posted on Monday, June 27, 2011 - 08:41 pm: |
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Loud and Low,
http://www.denniskirk.com/jsp/tpl/cmn/prodlist.jsp ?store=Main&category=41006&np=&brandId=678 |
Loud_and_low
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2011 - 08:44 am: |
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ahhh..metric category. Thanks CFB. |
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