| Author | Message | ||
     Cataract2 |
I'm afraid I might be starting to shotgun parts at my XB as I am completely at a loss now as to what is going on with my bike. I have a 2005 XB9SX with race ECM. It has started to idle low some months back. It would do this most pronounced on a hot start after sitting for ~10 minutes. When it started to do this I went and checked it with a computer to see what the readings were. I am showing idle to sit around 900 rpm until the ECM enters closed loop. Once it does that the idle will move up to 1050-1150 rpm. Now, sometimes when the idle is low it will slowly drop until it dies. I've noticed that it does this when the cold start enrichment drops down to 100. Also, when in closed loop the EGO readings sit around 130%-150%. I thought that maybe I have an intake leak so I went and checked for it. I can't get any rise in the rpms when checking for it, but I noticed my EGO would drop to 110% during the check. I thought maybe I had an intake leak, so I replaced my intake seals with the blue James Gasket ones. I also used Hylomar on the both sides of the seals to try to get a really good seal. I checked again and still same results. EGO drops, no change in RPM. Next I thought maybe fuel pressure is off. I checked my fuel pressure and it shows 50 psi which is within spec. Now, I do have a fuel filter, screen, and regulator just in case. I really don't know where to go with this anymore. I've checked my IAT sensor and it is still working. Even checked mine against a known good one and still the same results. If there is any help or suggestions that you can give me I would really appreciate it. This issue is driving me nuts. If you need anymore information please ask and I will provide it. | ||
| Greg_e |
Do you still have the stock ECM? Have you done a compression check on both cylinders? (Message edited by Greg_E on April 21, 2011) | ||
| Cataract2 |
Have the stock one and no to the compression check yet. | ||
| Cataract2 |
One thing I wonder, could I have a clogged fuel filter, yet still have a good pressure reading? If so, could that cause these issues? | ||
| Glitch |
If you have the stock ECM, drop it in, ride for a few minutes, and see what happens. | ||
| Cataract2 |
Dropped the stock ECM in and fired it up. It fired right up and ran normally. EGO was sitting around 105-119%. It moved up with engine temp and IAT temp. That sounds about normal to me. Looks like my Race ECM with 50,000 miles on it might finally be dying. Will run longer tests with the stock ECM to make sure. Oh, plugged the Race ECM back in and it does what it was doing above. Bad idle on Open loop and EGO jumping to 130% and moving up to 150% once closed starts. (Message edited by cataract2 on April 21, 2011) | ||
| Glitch |
Well, there ya go | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
OK Is it different because it's broken or is it different because it's different? This is pretty interesting stuff  | ||
| Cataract2 |
I would say something is amiss with the Race ECM now. Going to run some more extensive tests with the stock. I should add. I've talked with Erik Buell Racing about this as well. One thing they mentioned was ECMSpy can cause issues as well. Even with so much as doing a TPS and AFV reset they've seen it change other cals in some ECMS. Makes me kind of wonder. Anyone else seen this? I'm going to send my Race ECM to Erik Buell Racing to have them take a look at it. If it's the cal I will have them put it back to normal, if not and it's broke then I'll get a new one. (Message edited by cataract2 on April 22, 2011) | ||
| Cataract2 |
Gah, stock ECM wasn't the fix. Ug,well, got a bit more to work with. I've noticed that on both the stock and Race ECM one thing remains constant. My O2 is showing an always lean condition now. I've done the leak test hundreds of times now and I get nothing like I did in the past when I had an intake leak. So, while following the manual T/S chart for the O2 always lean reading. It mentions doing a fuel pressure test. I've done one and it was good and not low. Moving down it mentions a clogged fuel filter or screen. Now, I have replacements ready as I was thinking my fuel pump might be the issue before I did the pressure test. My filter and screen are the original. Both have 52,000+ miles on them. Thoughts? I'm probably going to do them. Just need to figure out how I'll get the pump out. | ||
| Glitch |
Have you confirmed the O2 sensor is functioning properly? | ||
| Gunut75 |
About 10-15 posts down "XB Fuel Filters" thread. Even has pics.  Its available at a local auto parts store. Ya just have to open up the trap door to the pump. | ||
| Slaughter |
It COULD be fuel filter, pump, clogged strainer or regulator (all part of the pump assembly). It is actually pretty easy to get to it. I just pulled mine literally sitting in the bed of the truck yesterday. Without a fuel pressure test rig, it's not that easy to test - but the replacement parts are available. The whole assembly is built up of a bunch of little pieces and you will need replacement hoses. Pics from yesterday's job:    (Message edited by slaughter on April 25, 2011) | ||
| Slaughter |
By the way, a fuel pressure check is EASY at a dealer with the rig. The Harley widget has gage and all the hardware, valves, etc and the Buell adapter. It can be gotten to by pulling off the intake airbox to get to the top of the engine. IF you are going to the dealer, you should do this first... save a couple bucks. If they have been servicing Buells in the past, they will have the Buell fuel system adapter. It enables actually starting and running the engine WITH the pressure gage in view. | ||
| Cataract2 |
I did run a fuel pressure test when I began this insanity. The pressure was 50psi at idle and stayed steady with the rpms being raised. Yet, in the manual it mentions with a lean condition on the O2 that the fuel filter needs to be checked even if you did not show low pressure. I dunno... Ah well, I have the parts, might as well do it. Also, looks like I have the Early Year model pump. Yay... Oh, as for the O2. I believe it's working as it does move up and down in the volt range. This problem affects Open loop as well. | ||
| Cataract2 |
Sigh, no change with the fuel filter change. Ok, I've got fluctuating idle with either closed or open loop. I have no idea where to go now. | ||
| Slaughter |
Crap I didn't read carefully enough - you DID state you were at 50. (Slaughter scratches head again...) | ||
| Obiewan |
Sounds like it could be the ole - Percolation / vapor-lock problem??? Could it be? Even with fuel injection. You mentioned it happens when it's on a "Hot Start" after 10 min or so mostly. Try some fuel without alcohol in it if it's available in your area. Also, Marvel Mystery Oil or Sea-Foam gas treatment added to each tankful can help this problem. Wrap fuel lines etc.. to help insulate from heat. Just a thought. Maybe it will help. | ||
| Cataract2 |
Well, continuing on in the hopes that one day my XB will run again. Otherwise I'm throwing it off a bridge. I've had enough of this. Anyways, I have replaced the fuel filter, screen and pressure reg. No change. It still runs like s***. Won't idle worth a dam, EGO sky rockets to 150% during operation, etc. I have swapped my injectors thinking it could be a clogged injector. No change. Still runs the same. Now, when the EGO is at 150% I will spray carb cleaner thinking I might have an intake leak. I will see it drop if I spray a good amount on the intake seals. I think that reaction is only caused by the vapor evaporating from the hot engine and getting sucked in. I certainly don't get any change in rpm. The one factor I'm noticing. I tested with yet another ECM, I didn't do a tps reset. Just plugged it in and fired it up. It ran fine, though the EGO this time went down to 75%. (Think the ECM might be a bit newer than my buddy thought. It was looking for an active muffler motor.) But, it ran. Even open loop seemed ok. Now, when I did a TPS reset with ECMSpy, it began to run like s***. I saw the same thing with my stock ECM. TPS reading was at 7.1%, I just plugged it in and it ran fine. Hell EGO was only 109%-115% (Expect that being that I have no airbox on and a Drummer Exhaust. It WOULD have to richen.) Yet, when I did a tps reset to 0 it began to run like s***. I'm thinking Erik Buell Racing might be right. ECMSpy is messing things up and possibly writing something somewhere to totally screw my ECM's up. Anyone else seen this? Fix? WTF?!?!?!?! | ||
| Obiewan |
does it run like crap when it's cold? | ||
| Thump4fun |
How about the TPS? You mention swapping in another ECM and it ran great at first -- until you did a TPS reset using ECMSpy. I fought an issue with random idling, stumbling and such for a few months last summer. When I swapped in a buddies's ECM it also ran beautifully at first. But the next morning it was back to crap. Turned out my problem was the TPS. Kept sending bad signals to the ECM on where the throttle position was, and the ECM would try to compensate for something that wasn't a problem, thereby creating a problem. Random idling, stalling out and stumbling off starts and even at constant speed. Didn't know it was the problem until my shotgunning parts hit the TPS and fixed her right up. Mine is a 2008 XB12, so different FI system, but still...it's a thought. | ||
| Cataract2 |
Only in open loop. Talked with Xopti (Mike) today and we went over it. The only thing I haven't mentioned was last year during winter I changed my gaskets out and went with a smaller .03 head gasket. Looks like that changed things just enough. Mike and I adjusted the idle map by 5 points and what do you know. Things adjust and it runs normally in open loop. Looks like my changes might have done a bit more than I thought. Will continue to play with it. | ||
| Glitch |
Ah, progress!  | ||
| Migs16 |
megalog your idle! that helped me alot to get a smooth idle | ||
| Obiewan |
Sweet! | ||
| Cataract2 |
Got a link for Megalog? | ||
| Xoptimizedrsx |
http://www.ideasandsolutions.biz/MegaLogViewer/ free tools to use. Once I knew the XB9 has the gasket swap and a few tidbits we did couple live test and its on track to getting back to norm... Take your time and ask any question how crazy it may be to some may be very logical to others. No since in not asking and not ever knowing. Glad I could help>>> brumm go ride. Also do the LCL thingy to target it a hair wider in tps and rpm. also remember some of these adjustments actually work backwards compared to normal thinking. You could only imagine how frustrating it was during test and development of the software's... | ||
| Cataract2 |
Test run update. Much better with hot starts now. No bogging or dying. Noticed my WOT was bogging above 4K though. Went back and adjusted my WOT enrichment. It was 105%, I adjusted it to 115%. No dice. Went back and set it to 100%. Damn bike nearly ripped my arms off. I'd forgotten how much fun the XB's were when running right. Now for fine tuning. Need to get a datalog going on this baby. | ||
| Greg_e |
I'm guessing that the WOT enrichment might be one of those backwards things mentioned by Mike??? | ||
| Xoptimizedrsx |
You can use sections of the ecm to see what direction you need to go in when chasing a problem. Its not the fix unless the map was even but just to rich or lean. in order to use this number your map needs to be even across the whole thing per section. There are 5(FIVE)Basic sections in the ecm on the maps to adjust.. From there you set the actual map numbers you see on the screen. same thing for EGO values and ect. below 100 take fuel out above 100 add fuel in on 100 leave it alone. On the wot and Open loop % it works the same in concept. However not very many people were ever told about it or it was discussed much. Just remember these work in an acceleration over time. As he has posted going from 105 to 100 was a huge difference. which now he knows what direction the fuel actually needs to be adjusted with out ever touching the map. you can move the fuel all sort a ways around in the map and never touch map values. This is controlled in many tables and settings not seen in ecmspy. you have access to these with an Erik Buell Racing tuner&ecm and Tunerpro RT for stock ecms. you can custom set your core to weird values then match the maps to that. once done this way if you try to use that map in a different bike it will run terrible because the core data is different. Its all about the core data. This is why some of my maps I knew were getting shared and copied by places testing them got poor results. I fooled them in the long run...As stated years ago there is more to it than just the maps alone. They didnt match the core data to the map, therefore having one 1/2 of the data loaded in the ecm is useless. Seeing these places say how bad it was is priceless to me, knowing what I had done. Now they know... LOL Glad your bike is going well now and remember to find out if the core data is changed before you copy maps to it or from it. if it is you need the whole thing to match. However if its a different firm ware your stuck manually moving things. Or have me Merge it with a non shared program for you. I am not locked to matching firmware. I use a totally different program not online to do this. | ||
| Cataract2 |
Xopti, not understanding that last part. Far as I know the core data is good being I keep loading eeprom. | ||
| Xoptimizedrsx |
sorry thats for people who have copied race maps to their stock ecm or copied maps only from other peoples stuff to their ecms' when the firmware is different, that is 1/2 the data.. Since this is only partial data it can be terrible if you dont know what the core data is that needs to match to the map. Its a fail safe technique some of Us have done on some maps not all maps but some. However if you Use Tunerpro you can do a side by side in alike firmwares and see every cell that is different and copy. You can do a merge (morph)file and then compare to a stock data or your Org file and see its all been moved. Yours is good. No worries.  | ||
| Cataract2 |
One thing I need to ask. I've noticed with Megalog it will adjust both the front and rear pretty close to each other (within a few points.) I know that the stock maps have them a bit more apart. Could there be any issues with this? |
