| Author | Message | ||
     420at145mph |
ALL carbon fiber RIMS n all guess the ztl isnt patented (and the back too?)  | ||
| M1combat |
The floating ZTL mounting system that Buell uses is patented. Floating rotors allow more stopping power. You can get that fron brake setup for about 2K. | ||
| 420at145mph |
DUAL! yummy and REAR yummy bet it stops good waddya think the rims cost 3795$ A PEICE!!! edited by 420at145mph on June 14, 2004 | ||
| 420at145mph |
   BOIIIIIIING!!!  | ||
| R1DynaSquid |
M1, how do floaters allow more stopping power? 420, perimiter brakes have been around a long time. A number of smaller setups have used them over the years, but Buell was the first to mass market the concept. | ||
| 420at145mph |
and if they DO offer more stopping power how come all the race buells i see have radial brake setups | ||
| M1combat |
Floating rotor mounting systems offer more stopping power because they allow the rotor to flex between the pads. This allows more even pad pressure. You get more maximum breaking power AND more even pad wear. Uhhh, The ZTL brake system DOES float. <--- That's the patented part... The perimiter mounted FLOATING system. Most perimeter breaks do NOT float (I think only the Buell system does). edited by M1combat on June 14, 2004 | ||
| Blake |
Other perimeter front brakes usually have the brake disk perched in harms way outboard of the wheel rim. The Buell ZTL system keeps the disk protected well inboard of the wheel rim. | ||
| R1DynaSquid |
A rotor will flex between the pads even if it isnt a floater. Floaters allow the disc to heat up with worrying about warpage as much. They also will help to free up a tiny bit of hp & gas mileage because the rotor is allowed to center itself between the pads better than a non floater...less drag. Take 2 bikes with the exact same setup only 1 has floaters & one doesnt & the stopping distances would be the same. | ||
| Skully |
"and if they DO offer more stopping power how come all the race buells i see have radial brake setups" Take a look at the XB's that Mike Ciccotto and Michael Barnes are campaigning in AMA Formula Extreme. They are running the ZTL brakes on their bikes. Here is a picture of Michael Barnes at speed (look at the front wheel)  Keith | ||
| M1combat |
"stopping distances would be the same. " Maybe... But there will be less pressure applied to the pads to achieve the same ammount of friction with the floating rotor. The main reason to float rotors is to have even pad pressure which will allow greater stopping power and the "hotspots" on the pads will be cooler because the entire pad has more even pressure. The pads will last longer as well. I agree that a non-floating rotor will flex, but not enough and it flexes over a shorter distance of the rotor. A floating rotor can flex most of the way around the rotor allowing less flex in one place. edited by M1combat on June 14, 2004 | ||
| 420at145mph |
 NON floater i got a bunch more with out em too but im not trying to size em all day just to get em posted blake u should really lift that gay limit to something less annoying edited by 420at145mph on June 14, 2004 | ||
| M1combat |
I have pics of that same bike with ZTL brakes. That's a floating rotor BTW. Nobody has used non floating rotors for a LONG time (like the mid eighties...). It's just not perimeter mounted. | ||
| R1DynaSquid |
Nobody has used non floating rotors for a LONG time (like the mid eighties...). Actually a number of cheaper bikes still use non floaters & HD still doesnt use a true floating rotor...theirs is designed to flex & even that didnt happen until 3-4 years ago. | ||
| M1combat |
Sorry, I suppose I shouldn't have used "nobody"... I meant on the higher end sport bikes. Stuff built for real performance. | ||
| Socoken |
okay, so im reading Dynas post and, They also will help to free up a tiny bit of hp ... Floating rotors give more HP? just about fell outta my chair laughing, good one. | ||
| Glitch |
Not give HP, free up HP. Not that it matters, I don't know how you could measure such a small bit of drag like that. | ||
| M1combat |
Well, maybe for the first few miles until the pads wear enough to where it's not an issue... If you actually have a good deal of friction between the rotor and pad after the pads are worn in a little then you probably mounted the pads wrong. Anyway... Someone else has to come up with an entirely different way of mounting rotors to the rim in a floating fashion or Buell has the braking market from here on out. Everyone else will need to migrate to perimeter rotors to keep up. Maybe there are teething problems ATM (although I don't know of any) but once all of those are ironed out Buell will be way ahead of the game  . Unsprung weight is VERY important (to not have). | ||
| Glitch |
good point. | ||
| M1combat |
Not to mention the handling market due to the reduced un-sprung mass . | ||
| R1DynaSquid |
Ken, when manufacturers are battling for bragging rights, every little bit helps. And like I posted ..frees up, not gives. | ||
| M1combat |
Actually.... I think that at speed there would be enough air being pulled through that there would be no friction. Of course, that's just my completely unsubstantiated opinion pulled straight from my lower orifice. This of course assumes that the caliper and rotor are designed correctly. At the least with the air rushing past the caliper and cooling it and the fluid in it... the fluid should contract and pull the pad away from the rotor just a "tad"... Just a thought. | ||
| R1DynaSquid |
But they dont. Here's an experiment you can try. Go for a ride, a decent ride & try not to use your front brake at all...I know on a Buell its hard because the rear is so lame. Anyways after awhile pull over a touch your rotor..carefully of course so you dont burn yourself. Their is always contact between the pads & the rotor..at least one side or the other..hence the need for a floater...& the brake will be warm to hot without ever having used it. | ||
| 420at145mph |
" try not to use your front brake at all...I know on a Buell its hard because the rear is so lame" thats about the UNDERSTATMENT of the year | ||
| José_quiñones |
The current Buell Formula Extreme Braking system:  Yes that's EIGHT pistons..... These are prototype calipers, both riders reported having problems with them at Road America, hopefully they'll get them sorted out by the next race. By the way, if I remember right the ZTL patent is not only about the rotor, it also includes what this rotor design allows to be done to the wheel(ie using very thin spokes to make the wheel lighter because the braking forces no longer have to go through the spokes). edited by josé_quiñones on June 14, 2004 | ||
| Johnnyxb9 |
BUELL XB was the bike to come with them stock. American Sport Bike has been selling a kit for the tubers for years now. I think it is produced by Braking. | ||
| M1combat |
I don't know about the reduced unsprung weight patent but I saw a pencil/pen drafted pic that may have been part of what was sent to receive the patent and it only showed the mounting system for the rotor. I didn't see any of the text though. As far as a patent on a method to reduce unsprung mass... I would imagine that being an American company might make it a little easier to get the patent. Brilliant idea none the less . Any word on what sort of HP they make? It's real close to 140 isn't it? edited by M1Combat on June 14, 2004 | ||
| Dcmortalcoil |
Buell has at least two US Patents, Nos. 6,672,419 and 6,561,298 directed to their ZTL brake. Their invention is defined by their claims (last section). In the first (one with lower no.) patent, every claim recites "a slot having flat sides that are non-parallel with respect to each other." In the second patent, every claim recites "a biasing member compressed between the rotor and the wheel, and biasing the rotor away from the wheel and acting along a line of force that is generally parallel to and non-collinear with the longitudinal axis of the fastener". If you want to read their patent, go to http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/srchnum.htm and plug these patent numbers. You can view the patents as an image if you get the tiff plug in (its free). | ||
| Slowby |
you have to have floating rotors or calipers one. fixed calipers ans rotors in combination is a bad warp that keeps heating up waighting to happen. those 8piston calipers dont look like differential boar?that is a problem w/ hd stock calipers. the pads never wear even. you can tell the difference instantly when changing to floating rotors, even w/ floating calipers. they stop much better w/ less pad usage | ||
| José_quiñones |
They will admit to 135 hp. I was wrong about the patents, there are three separate patents, the two mentioned are only related to the rotor and how it's mounted, The third patent, Patent Application 20030011238, "lightweight motorcycle wheel", mentions the "inside out" brake and it's benefits to the wheel design described in the patent. edited by josé_quiñones on June 15, 2004 | ||
| Blake |
Donnie, "blake u should really lift that gay limit to something less annoying" No one else is complaining. Of course if you want to send me the extra $200/month for the added bandwidth, I'd be happy to raise the photo size limit. Might be more cost effective for you to purchase and learn how to use the image compression software at www.xat.com. JPEG Optimizer is simple and easy to use. You should be able to post a 640x480 pixel sized photo with little to no degradation in displayed quality. Anything better than 70 to 100 dpi is wasted on a web pic. A computer screen cannot display anything better than that. | ||
| Blake |
Or... you could find another Buell site that allows uploads of larger photo file sizes and let me know . BadWeB will beat it. Good luck. | ||
| Dcmortalcoil |
Jose, 20030011238 is a published patent application. Not a patent. A big difference. Hey, I just realize that you are my neighbor. I live in Arlington. edited by dcmortalcoil on June 16, 2004 edited by dcmortalcoil on June 16, 2004 | ||
| 420at145mph |
  wonder how many ponies one of these BAD BOYS would free up | ||
| Glitch |
Does real good on a 2 stroke. | ||
| Starter |
After reading through this post so not to make an arse of myself, just a little trivia, A certain Yamaha 250cc GP bike has been running a single perimeter brake for the past 3 GPs............ |
