| Author | Message | ||
     Dieseldreamer |
Hey People. So since the XB is tune able via the ECM I was wondering if anyone has run E85 in their bikes? I think it would be a cheaper alternative to race fuels found at the track, Minus a few changes from rubber fuel lines, would it be at all possible to run E85 in the XB series frame? Just curious. Erik | ||
| Greg_e |
Need a much higher volume pump and much bigger injectors too. Pitstops will be much more frequent since you get a lot less miles to the gallon. | ||
| Dieseldreamer |
I understand that but does the aftermarket sell ether? I think if you raised the compression and tuned it out the difference in mileage would shrink for sure. | ||
| Sifo |
I don't know about shrinking the difference in mileage. E85 just doesn't have the same energy per gallon as gas. I'm not sure about raising the compression either. E85 isn't a high octane fuel is it? It's targeted at vehicles to burn either pump gas or E85 so I can't see why they would make it a high octane fuel. | ||
| Fast1075 |
E-85 is 85% ethanol...it is highly resistant to detonation...it will work under pretty substantial compression without spark knock. You need a lot of compression to effectively use ethanol or methanol...the compression helps make up for the lack of energy (btu per pound) of fuel. Just the ticket for that mega compression race engine...but not so good for low compression (stock) engines....cars and trucks set up for E-85 (flexfuel) have sophisticated control systems that help the engines use the fuel as efficiently as possible..(but it still does not work as well as straight gasoline in "standard" engines. The fuel to air ratio is much lower for the alcohol fuels than gasoline...gasoline generally in most cases works best at around 14.7 to 1....straight ethanol runs "around" 7 or 8 to 1...in other words you will get slightly better than half the fuel economy compared to straight gasoline. Then you have to deal with the combustion byproducts which can be highly corrosive and the moisture from combustion can contaminate the oil...I would stick with gasoline... | ||
| Greg_e |
Turbo to raise the compression, titanium valves to resist corrosion, stainless exhaust for same. I have not seen an E85 station in my area yet, rumor is that there is one but still so uncommon it doesn't matter. We do have that crappy 10 percent fuel which does basically nothing but wreck your mileage and make the engines run lean wrecking lawn mowers and snow blowers and everything carburetor. | ||
| Froggy |
E85 is between 100 and 105 octane. I looked into converting to E85 a while back to reduce my gasoline consumption, unfortunately it isn't cheap or easy.  | ||
| Dieseldreamer |
Alright, I'm no expert on the subject but I would say I am well versed on the subject of E85. Overall, I have some bits of information that need correction. #1). Pure ethanol is a high octane fuel, just like its cousin methanol. Pure ethanol can reach up to 115 octane. Realistically when you make 100% ethanol you have to remove all of the water in the batch. After removing all the water, which isn't easy to do, you have to seal the batch from the air itself and add additives to the fuel. The second you expose it to the air it becomes roughly 98% ethanol because it will some absorb moisture found in the ambient environment. So that's it's biggest problem with it when it comes to corrosion. Water degrades cheap metal parts found in the fuel lines and fuel system.In addition, ethanol itself is a solvent and OVERTIME will degrade natural rubbers that maybe used in the fuel system. Carbs have plenty of rubbers and brass parts in them, thus they need to be built right to run this type of fuel. Titanium valves are not really needed since so many E85 vehicles use steal valves. Corrosion to this degree isn't an issue since it doesn't corrode like methanol would. #2) Ethanol itself on a chemical level carries an oxygen molecule with it, so running it with out a tune will naturally lean out the mixture. This same oxygen molecule can however help in the combustion process by letting the fuel burn much cooler. #3) The reason for the mileage difference is based on the BTU per gallon (not pound) found in a gallon of gasoline vs a gallon of e85. Gasoline has roughly 114,000-118,000 BTU per gallon where as E85 has anywhere from 78,000-82,000 BTU per gallon. So roughly 1/3rd less BTU per gallon. Less BTU = less energy. By the way, BTU means British Thermal Unit, which is how heat can be measured from one gallon of fuel. So if you were to burn 1 gallon of lets say diesel fuel, you would get roughly 130,000 BTU per gallon. Again, more kinetic heat, means more energy. In theory the more energy per gallon you have the better fuel economy you should get. Engine design however plays a key role in this. Thats why, aside from the diesel combustion process itself, diesel fuel has more MPG in it (so to speak) compared to that of gasoline or ethanol. Getting back on topic, the way you can counter act a low energy content fuel is by doing a few things. A). You can get a really big fuel tank.Not ideal at all, which is why hydrogen fuel storage is a long way off right now. B). You can raise the STATIC compression of the vehicles engine ONLY IF the octane of the fuel in question is high enough to accompany the higher compression ratio. Ex. Hairspray may have a lower energy content than gasoline but its flash point is also much lower than that of gasoline. C) You can raise the DYNAMIC compression of engine using a supercharger/turbocharger application. The same rule as B would apply of course. D). Things like direct injection help fuel atomization conserve fuel much better than that of a carburetor or port injection systems. However, its not really an option for the fuel injection XB. Regardless of the fuel economy loss, Greg_e was right in saying you have to up the amount of volume put into the engine by getting a bigger pump (or hard wiring one; not recommended) and getting bigger injectors. I live in the corn capital of the US, Illinois baby. We have politicians that push for corn ethanol because it gains them votes come election season. Corn ethanol is not a great way to make ethanol but its a cheap performance fuel vs buying leaded gasoline or finding someway to strap a 3600 PSI tank to run compressed natural gas on your bike. There are plenty of pumps ready in several cities across county and two stations in the city I currently live in. When you save 30 cents a gallon and factor in the fuel economy loss, you break about even with the stuff. 103 Octane fuel, with a special tune, and a bump in compression from say 10.1 to 10.5/11.0 to 1 would work wonders on these bikes. I'm sure of it. I didn't post this to brag but rather to get feed back from anyone running a bike on it. I found this site if your interested. They have a triumph (yuck) running E85. http://www.change2e85.com/servlet/Page?template=MC conversion Can anyone tell me if the injector connections look anything like these: http://www.change2e85.com/servlet/Page?template=Po wersports Really I'm just curious and looking for future prospects. I appreciate everyone's input and I promise to edit this in the morning. Right now, I'm beat! Erik (Message edited by dieseldreamer on August 14, 2010) (Message edited by dieseldreamer on August 14, 2010) | ||
| Greg_e |
Didn't nascar run a few races on e85 last year? I'm certain you could convert a Buell for e85, but it will take a lot of work. If you were going to do this work you might as well set it up flex fuel. You could bump up the compression in a 12 motor by putting the 9 pistons in it and then maybe shave the head a little. Run the ignition advance a bit less on higher gasoline and a bit more on higher alcohol. This would let you get a little bit more performance out of the e85 without risking detonation. Getting the fuel pump to cooperate might be a tough thing, bigger injectors shouldn't be too much of a problem though they might require work on the fuel rail and the intake runners. | ||
| Greg_e |
Oh and it will take a specially programmed computer to run everything. To get flex fuel would take a whole new computer with the fuel sensor. The fuel pump can probably be done with racing parts, the injectors are pretty common, the computer is going to be a big issue to find or build. | ||
| Fast1075 |
My first experiences with methanol were with Karts in the late 60's/early 70's. I later ran methanol in a GS1000 dragbike. The Karts ran static C/R's in the 15-1 neighborhood...and ran with no problems at all with detonation (we all know how picky the timing is on a rotary valve 2 smoke, right?) The GS ran well at 14-1 compression...we had to run all the fuel out at evenings end and spray wd 40 in the carbs while cranking the engine over to lube the cylinders and valve seats so they wouldnt rust (not from the corrosive effects, but because the methanol washed the oil off the cylinders) and we sprayed the pipe to keep it from rusting. We didnt have any corrosion problems with the Kart motors because of the required castor oil lubricant. (we used Klotz green label that also had a touch of nitromethane in it). | ||
| Aptbldr |
Cooling benefits? For example: modified XB running E85, tuned to nearly standard performance levels. Does this modified engine run at significantly cooler temperatures than standard XB? XB fuel tank capacity is already marginal, if MPG decreased much, E85's no good as a street fuel for a rider like me. | ||
| Sifo |
Interesting links about the E85 conversions. I would have a couple of concerns though. I didn't see anything about really optimizing for the higher octane in the conversions. I'm not sure what's typically done with production flex fuel vehicles. I had heard that they will just get less mileage and less power on E85, but don't have any first hand experience. Once you have bumped the compression up to take advantage of the higher compression from E85 I don't think you will have a flex fuel vehicle anymore. That may not be an issue if you are looking to run E85 exclusively. I would also guess that you may have to tweak the fuel maps at this point because you are altering the way the engine will pump air. I might be wrong on that point, but I would have a re-map in the plan. One last thing. I'm in your area. You will almost certainly be storing the bike for the winter. I would be concerned about absorption of water during a prolonged storage period. Not a big deal draining the tank, but I personally would make sure I do it each fall. One more last thing. I've never been a big fan of trying to get too much more HP from the XB mill. It's a pretty old design that Buell did quite a good job of pushing near it's limits of reliability. There just isn't that much cushion there to protect you from breaking the expensive stuff. To me personally it wouldn't be worth making the conversion. Everyone has their own motivations and tolerance for expense in modifications though. It it floats your boat so to speak, I'm sure the conversion can be done with the proper mix of cash and expertise. I would be curious to see how it works out if you go that route. Please keep us informed. | ||
| Jaimec |
E85 is not a particularly "Green" fuel either. Because we insist on making ethanol from corn, we actually use more energy creating ethanol from corn than we would if we just burned gasoline in our cars. Pretty stupid if you ask me. | ||
| Gearhead |
Dieseldreamer, I'm testing E-85 right now in a race only application and we instantly made more torque with no ECM tuning from my VP race fuel map. There is power there. Again, this is a race only application. With E-85 in the low $2.00 or less range as compared to over $6.50 per gallon for VP race fuel, even if the power levels stay equal, it's a huge savings over the entire season on fuel costs. Erik Buell Racing sells a high pressure regulator for the XB's which I own but have not installed yet but it is necessary for proper tuning. Bigger injectors are also a must. Because this is a race application, when I test with it I drain the E-85 fairly soon afterward and run race gas through the system to control corrosion. For those who don't race, this is a fairly common practice with high end race gas which is also extremely corrosive. I am racing with unleaded race fuel now but when time allows over the winter I will be doing more testing I am planning to switch to E-85 next year as long as it stays legal to use in CCS competition. | ||
| Greg_e |
You can actually choose the fuel you want to run? Once upon a time run had the run what was at the track except for a few pump gas classes and then they really still wanted you to buy at the track. If things have changed that is a big step forward. If the race fits with the e85 consumption then there are a few advantages, you can jump the compression up and make at least equal power after fuel system adjustments. It is also lighter than gasoline so you have a weight savings at the start of the race vs. a full load of gasoline. That said there are reasons to run on alcohol so if you can get everything refined you might end up with greater power than you can get with gasoline. From what I have read the O2 readings can get whacked so you might need a wide band O2 and controller. | ||
| Gearhead |
Greg_e, You're correct if you're trying to get contingency money for the fuel you are running. I always bring my own, much cheaper that way! | ||
| Greg_e |
I just did some checking and it looks like I was wrong, ethanol is pretty close to the same weight as gasoline. | ||
| Fast1075 |
The Suzuki GS 1000 had a "backbone" tank aka fuel in frame  that held about a quart of fuel...with the methanol it was just enough for a burnout and a pass...you had to be towed back to the pits...or push it back. With gasoline jetted carbs and C-16 gasoline, you cold make that pass and ride it back to the pits... A possible concern might be throttle icing..we had to wd40 the slides on the carbs to keep them from freezing (literally) in the WOT position. | ||
| Dieseldreamer |
FAST1075 - Methanol is much cooler to run compared with ethanol and it was used in INDY racing for many years without problems. Now they use 100% ethanol. Methanol itself has an even lower energy content then E85; however, methanol has a high octane. When it came to INDY they actually increased their fuel mileage by using ethanol compared to methanol. Nonetheless they also lost power from dropping down in terms of the octane rating. I'm told that methanol isn't fun to work with at a higher than 50% level. Methanol is corrosive to the core and eats rubber pretty damn quick. I wouldn't use it as fuel in the XB series bikes. (Message edited by dieseldreamer on August 15, 2010) | ||
| Dieseldreamer |
Gearhead - How much more torque did you make on the E85 fuel tune compared to running ur unleaded race gas? Seriously keep the group updated on you plan on doing? Are you going with bigger injectors or are you settling on just using a bigger pump? I don't know what the duty cycle would be with fueling more juice to the engine so that is why I ask. I was hoping to get into CCS racing in the next 2-3 years and I hope that by then I can get on a bike and run this fuel. You are right 6.50 for race gas is way to much. my friend put bought 5 gallons at like 32.50 for his Ducati! How friggin insane is that? This maybe a little off topic but how many laps is a typical CCS race? Do you think you would burn through E85 to quickly to run it without having to many pit stops or would this present a problem for you? Erik | ||
| Dieseldreamer |
Greg_E I am glad the fuels weigh about the same since they do specific gravity tests randomly at the race track. The specific gravity of the fuel has to be between a certain range and if it fails you have u to drain and fill with something that is appropriate. They can do the test before, during, or after the race. In which case if they find you "cheating" after the fact you get a nice DQ. (Message edited by dieseldreamer on August 15, 2010) | ||
| Gearhead |
Dieseldreamer, Without doing a lot of digging as I recall we picked up 5-6ft lbs or torque without doing any tuning from my race fuel map so I know there's a lot more available with some additional tuning. I run a set of Buell race injectors or modified stock injectors when I test with E-85 because you'll run out of duty cycle real quick on stock injectors. Most CCS races are 8 laps, approximately 16-18 miles, Road America is usually 4-5 laps, 16-20 miles so E-85 will still work without running the tank dry. | ||
| Ourdee |
While we are sharing. I used to run nitromethanol with propanol and oil in a pair of 28cc 2-smokes hooked up to 2 24" pusher props on the back of a 20" bicycle with dual steering. Sounded like a twin engine aircraft till I blew one of the engines. The other engine gave up the ghost 6 months later. The fuel ate up everything; fuel line, pump, and seals. Evil stuff. I still have the bike and have been thinking about finding another pair of motors. It ran 24 mph on one motor. | ||
| Dieseldreamer |
Gearhead- Where do get Buell race injectors? Buell itself is out of business. Would there be able to find a third party company out there? How would you go about modifying the stock ones? Lastly, do you write your own maps and if so is it hard to do? Ourdee - Sounds like a crazy. Could you pedal plus run the motors? Erik | ||
| Ourdee |
Yes you could. It has front wheel drive with a four speed coaster brake. I could crab walk it to use a side wind for more push. I never experimented with that much though. I think you can get the race injectors from Erik Buell Racing. | ||
| Dieseldreamer |
Injectors are not on the website. I've looked for it all. Erik | ||
| Terrys1980 |
The race injectors are only for the 1125 | ||
| Gearhead |
I got a set of XB race injectors right before the company closed. I've been told V-Rod injectors will work but the problem with them and the XB race injectors is that they spray straight down. XB injectors have an angle spray pattern which is unique to them. Hopefully by late fall or early winter I will be able to supply racers with correct XB injectors that have been modified, still have the angled spray and a downloadable map for E-85. The injectors will be on a trade basis with your originals. I'm still in the preliminary stages of E-85 tuning but it's worth working on it from a power and reduced fuel cost standpoint. | ||
| Greg_e |
Just a tip... RX7 injectors sprayed down on a perforated disk to help with the dispersion pattern, from what I can tell it worked pretty good. This would allow an injector with an incorrect angle to work just as well as one with the correct angle but you would need to modify the intake. You could also double them up so that you have twice the volume injected. If you match the impedance properly the drivers should handle both injectors but once again you would need custom intake and fuel rail. A drop in will be nice for most people, got a larger TB and intake to go with it? | ||
| Dieseldreamer |
Gearhead - that's awesome you are doing this. We need you to do this for the cost factor, not so much for the performance aspect. $6.50 for 100 unleaded race fuel is ridiculous. Even premium at $3.20 here is to much. Ethanol prices rarely change and the cooling aspect, along with the performance increase are just the bonuses. Please keep us updated on anything you do in terms of downloadable maps and injector swaps. Erik |
