| Author |
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Jraice
| | Posted on Saturday, August 14, 2010 - 08:37 pm: | 
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Nah stick with the xb at the track . I love passing liters with my "Harley"... Even in the faster turns at thill. |
Dieseldreamer
| | Posted on Sunday, August 15, 2010 - 01:41 pm: |
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Gearhead - what do you u know about CCS racing and racing say an XB12R? Just curious. I need more info, I saw you replied on my E85 post. I figure the XB would be a good platform to learn on next year and maybe do a season or two of racing. Really though it seems after talking to so many different people that you basically will want to advance yourself over time. That and the air cooled factor weighs on you for making high horsepower numbers. |
Gearhead
| | Posted on Sunday, August 15, 2010 - 06:43 pm: |
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As far as CCS goes, there are six classes that the XB fits...
Lightweight SuperSport - 1210cc max.
Lightweight SuperBike - 1210cc max.
Lightweight Gran Prix - 1210cc max.
GT Lights - 1210cc max.
Thunderbike - unlimited cc for air cooled machines
SuperTwins - not a good pick now that the 1125R is legal in this class!
And if you're old enough, 40+, Lightweight Formula 40 - unlimited cc for air cooled machines
I race in LWSS, LWF40 and Thunderbike. Although there are guys running purpose built big cc bikes in LWF40 and Thunderbike, most of the amateurs run bikes they can race in multiple classes.
O.K. the whole XB vs 1125R thing...
You'll need to decide what your long term goals are but I can tell you there are hundreds of racers who have and will continue to race in the Lightweight classes throughout their entire racing career. For me personally, I'll probably stay in that class because it is a less costly class to compete in mainly when it comes to the tire bill plus there are lots of guys who run silly fast on these bikes. The Lightweight classes are great to develop your riding skills, also, since you're not relying on horsepower alone to run faster lap times.
Don't get me wrong, if I'd started racing an 1125R, I'd probably stay with that, too. Remember the horsepower thing really means very little unless you're racing up a class which very few people do with a Lightweight bike. |
Dieseldreamer
| | Posted on Monday, August 16, 2010 - 02:57 am: |
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Gearhead - Do you go through tires every practice/race? Do you have an extra set of tires/wheels on hand? I wish I knew how to change tires for a motorcycle without a machine. HD and other dealers want an arm+leg to buy tires from them with free install. Realistically, on one set alone... I could save 50 bucks a set buying on the internet, avoiding taxes, and getting free shipping. There is so much I need to learn I can always counter an answer with another question... sorry! LoL.
Erik |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Monday, August 16, 2010 - 08:23 am: |
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(forgive the un-asked-for advice here)
Eventually you WILL WANT a second set of wheels - ESPECIALLY if you're in an area with more than a few days of ra*n a year. In that case, you may want to have a set of intermediates or RA*N tires mounted and ready in changing conditions.
Also, when using racing compounds and once you're up to speed, you can (barely) get 3 days out of a set of tires (more like 2) and it is good to have your next set already mounted and ready to drop on so you're not waiting for new rubber at the end of the day.
If you're buying racing tires at the track, you're going to be getting the freshest rubber - best price (on racing compounds) - and the mounting is free.
The racing slicks and DOT's can be "flipped" - so you're wearing BOTH sides of the tires. You can get another day out of the tires that way.
CCS has "the usual" tire vendors at almost every venue. The good thing is that they can spot you on your tire wear, give you feedback on your presures, compound choices and based on their "reading" the tire wear, help suggest suspension changes.
When I was running only 2 races, I could get 3 full days on a set of tires: Day 1 - RACE DAY - fresh tires. Day 2 - flip the tires and run on the "other side" Day 3 - final practice (this gets iffy - depending on number of heat cycles and just how much wear you have)
GENERALLY SPEAKING, you are far better off getting your tires AT the track. Rubber is only a few weeks old (and not "New Old Stock" as is so often the case with the discount tires) - and you CANNOT buy race rubber easily online (unless directly from one of the sellers that ALSO sell to the racers at the tracks)
YOU MUST have tire warmers eventually. The rubber tends to harden more with each heat cycle and if you have ONE HEAT CYCLE per day, it's far better than 6 cycles without warmers (typical practice day or track day)
When you come off the track - if you're not going to go out again for a few hours, you can put the warmers on to prevent the rubber from cooling too fast... like at the end of the day (if you still have some miles left in the rubber)
Welcome to the addiction.
(Message edited by slaughter on August 16, 2010) |
Dieseldreamer
| | Posted on Monday, August 16, 2010 - 05:52 pm: |
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Wow more questions.. isn't everyone surprised?
What do u use to haul your bike? Small truck? I'm into diesels so its ether going to be a diesel truck or a diesel SUV. Ha...
Also do u need a generator since it seems that you can't just keep your tires warm on hopes and dreams. I'm not sure if tracks have electricity to use for racers. Do they come in sets and are they $$$?
Also I assume you should bring a portable air compressor? I think overall it would seem like a practical idea for power tools and using it to air your tires up.
What do you mean by flipping the tires? Make the left side the right side so it wears evenly?! Just making sure I have the concept down. |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Monday, August 16, 2010 - 06:07 pm: |
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You will need a generator. It should be reasonably quiet or you're gonna lose friends since the generators run nearly all day at the track. Very few tracks have electricity that'll run the number of sets of warmers in use (think 2000 watts per bike multiplied by a LOT OF BIKES).
Pickup is easiest. MAYBE a trailer behind the truck to pull the bike and make piling in the gear easier. I've used 2-rail trailer behind the car for shorter runs but having an old, beater pickup is nice.
Pop-up for shade and ra*n protection. Use 4 each 5-gallon buckets for holding down the shade (filled with water at each corner) or something to tie them down well against wind and dust devils.
Warmers are going to be $250 (used) - and up to $500 for pretty sweet new.
Tools for any repairs you'd be willing to tackle trackside. Spare nuts and bolts and hardware.
Don't bother with a compressor - get a tank to use for topping off the tires. Tanks are something like Sears Air Tanks (click) Fill them up high at home, bleed them down at the track after they've been heated. Might not even need air at the track if just one day. Get your trackside tire guy (whichever brand you are running) to give you the recommended pressures and if you DO have warmers, get the HOT pressures and check pressure the FIRST THING on your return to the pits before they cool off. Even better, stop AT the tire dealers and have him measure pressures right away.
The race tires CAN be flipped - left-to-right, reversing the direction. It'll get you another day of riding.
(Message edited by slaughter on August 16, 2010) |
Jraice
| | Posted on Monday, August 16, 2010 - 06:11 pm: |
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Yes some tires (be sure yours are) are reversible. Some tracks wont need it but most seem to have a bias. For example my local track Thunderhill has 12 left turns (one you are at max lean for like 7 seconds) and 4 rights.
Its also an abrasive track so many people leave after a weekend there with a "slick" on the left side (started with thread  ) that looks totally chewed apart, and a right side that looks like it has many days left on it (it does have the rubber but is probably fairly heat cycled).
Some tires can be flipped around so the "right" side is on the left and you can get another day out of them. If I am going to take the trouble to change tires (remove wheels) I just get new rubber.
Also I'd say just get a converter for power tools to run off the car. I like to use a regular hand pump for tires, or the tire guys onsite will have a big compressor.
Trucks are used often but be careful, they are usually tall and require some help to get the bike in and out of. I have a buddy who uses an astrovan he bought for $1000. Can easily fit two bikes for a trackday or one bike and lots of other goodies for a race weekend. The lower ramp makes loading MUCH easier, just put a wheel chalk in the van to catch the bike in place. Also he doesn't have to drive 55mph on the highway since he isn't towing anything.
I personally have a hitch on the back of my mothers SUV and just borrow it for my trackdays, or hitch a ride with buddies. Uhaul single bike trailers are only $15 a day, $25 a day can fit a few bikes.
Tire warmers are necessary for racing so you have some heat in the tires before the race and for conserving tires but as a first time track rider I would wait a bit. You can use good sport/track street tires for your first few trackdays and have tons of grip. Most of the DOT race tires will be fine without warmers as well.
My next tire will be Pirelli's new Superbike PRO slick (not the regular SC slicks). It only comes in one compound but is designed to work well with stock suspension (no tearing etc...). It is also easier to warm up and wont be effected by heat cycling as much. Marketed as a great trackday slick and race day tire for the average racer. A super competitive racer will probably opt for the multi compound SC tires.
Ken Hill, a local expert of Thunderhill (again I said its an abrasive track known for killing left sides of tires) tested a set for a few days and ran very fast A laps (near most riders race pace) on his R1. He had exceptional tire wear, looked like someone took a brand new slick and scuffed it lightly with sandpaper. Many said it was simply his skill and smoothness but he then chimed in and said he actually tried to abuse the tires by using excessive gas (sliding) out of corners and even went out on some first/second laps (tires still "cold") and ran a decent race pace (not his race pace but that of most riders) without any wear issues.
He probably had another day or two left in them after the weekend of testing. |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Monday, August 16, 2010 - 06:25 pm: |
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CHEAPIE trucks. My SR5 Toyota couldn't be sold for $350 - but I can get a few more years out of her.
People kid about the crappy SR5 all the time but it's nice having a half dozen motorcycles, a truck and two cars and NO PAYMENTS (because no matter how you cut it, racing gets expensive). Also saves HUGE on insurance. |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Monday, August 16, 2010 - 06:27 pm: |
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Another thing on the air: IF you get paintball air bottles, you can use them to fill tires.
I use our SCUBA bottles for trackside air (they sell inflation adapters for SCUBA) |
Gearhead
| | Posted on Monday, August 16, 2010 - 07:08 pm: |
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Dieseldreamer,
You're getting great advice from Steve and Jordan!
As far as tire life goes, I get alot more than 3 race days out of my tires but Steve is also an expert rider and is much quicker than me and probably works his tires much harder than I do. I ALWAYS check with the tire vendors to get their opinion on my tire condition and when they tell me to change, I do! One thing I've learned is that the better your suspension is set up, the better your tire wear will be.
Check with Erik Buell Racing on an extra set of wheels. I have two spare sets, one set I use to swap out with new tires , the other has a set of intermediate rains on.
Buy tires from track vendors, as mentioned. I have purchased some on-line and had good results but I had to pay to have them mounted and balanced, locally. I have a local Honda shop that mounts tires for me very reasonably since they know I'm racing on them. Check around, maybe a shop will help you out also.
I haul my bike with a small enclosed trailer - 12' x 6' and pull it with a pickup. I've never liked unloading a bike out of a pickup since it seems like you're always doing it alone so I thought the trailer was the was to go.
I carry an air tank to the races and have never come home with it empty even when I've been at the track with friends. They're inexpensive and don't take up a lot of space.
If you cannot afford to buy a Honda generator, rent one for the weekend. They are SO quiet and have plenty of power and as was mentioned, you'll gain friends!
You're asking all the questions that everyone asks when they are getting started. There are no dumb questions either!! |
Dieseldreamer
| | Posted on Monday, August 16, 2010 - 11:52 pm: |
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Holy s**t the investment seems like its going to be outrageous. My girlfriend is going to go nuts when I start to spend money like this! She needs a ring and a house first. I know thats what she will tell me! LoL.
Now don't get me wrong the main reason I wanna do this is because it would be a blast to do. However, financially do you guys get any money out of it? I mean if your good, consistent, and polite (lol) does the money spent slowly turn into money earned?
Do the tire warmers go for $500 a set or a piece?! I see them as an investment that pays off quickly but 1K up front is a lot of money to pony up.
Gearhead. I can't find any wheels from Erik Buell Racing being sold in sets? I could only find their magnesium rim for 1K. Ouch! LoL. Those will not be in my future.
With tires is there a disposable fee for the used ones? I need to go to an event and see how this all plays out. Blackhawk is coming up maybe I can check it out.
What does everyone do in order to stay good in the points standings? Clearly you can travel the country to race. I'm sure most, if not all of you, have day jobs M-F. I mean do you guys just go to the ones closest to you and workout the rest best you can?
Thanks in advance for all future help and thank you for any previous help. I am getting a better and bigger idea of how this all could work for me. Overall its cheaper than racing a car! |
Greg_e
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2010 - 12:02 am: |
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Do not go into this expecting to make money, expect that you will be eating Ramen noodles to pay for tires and fuel, if you are lucky enough to eat. |
Jraice
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2010 - 12:06 am: |
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For the suspension concerns just got a quote of $800 to respring and revalve forks and shock. Even cheaper than just a shock. |
Dieseldreamer
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2010 - 01:23 am: |
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LoL I never ever saw racing as a get rich quick idea. I know a lot guys from motocross to high 6 second drag racers, its hard to even sustain the habit long enough to make money. Most people give up, get old, or go broke having fun. I hope none of those happen to me!
Erik |
Trojan
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2010 - 05:20 am: |
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I think possibly your best course of action would be to attend a race school using one of their bikes to start with. This will give you an idea of your aptitude for racing and you should have an idea if you like it or not.
Racing is a VERY expensive hobby even at basic club level. If you want to be running at the front then expect to pay for new tyres/engine rebuilds/testing every meeting if not every race. You will need two sets of wheels to allow for wet weather so budget for another set of wheels and wet tyres too. Some people are happy to spend a minimum and just ride around at the back of the field, others want to win at all costs so you need to decide which level you are happy to ride at and pay for. There is nothing more frustrating than racing on a tiny budget adn being unable to run at the front purely because of financial considerations rather than talent.
Some people find that doing track days instead of racing gives them similar kicks for a lot less money |
Jraice
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2010 - 06:09 am: |
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+1 on trackdays! Just pretend it's a super intense qualifying session! I am preparing for my 5th and 6th Tday (weekend) and have thought about racing in the future but still get huge kicks out of improving my times and bike over time! Racing the clock is almost as fun as other riders. Plus you can mod the bike piece by piece instead of all at once like in racing. |
Dieseldreamer
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2010 - 08:27 am: |
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Trojan and Jraice - I see my buddy and I doing a few track days and schools where we bring our own bikes (cause its cheaper) next year for certain. I honestly just want to see where I'm at in terms of what it would take to go to events and really club race. Again as expensive as this is, it sure beats running a car in the SCCA classes.
Trojan - It does make sense that to be the best you have to spend like the best. I not only need to asses my finical goals but my skill level as well. Especially when it comes time to actually learning to race. Again, like I've said before I just trying to asses what things need to be had in order be a "serious" novice racer and how to be competitive through out the season. Honestly I think once the initial investments are made it becomes cheaper season after season unless stuff brakes, bikes drop, etc. Once I get certain gear, things will start to ease up. The question is when will this all happen?
Erik |
Trojan
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2010 - 09:50 am: |
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Honestly I think once the initial investments are made it becomes cheaper season after season unless stuff brakes, bikes drop, etc. Once I get certain gear, things will start to ease up. The question is when will this all happen?
The problem is that we all thought like that when we started  Then you realise that as you get faster the bike needs to be improved/replaced/tuned/fettled and you end up digging a large hole and filling it with money!
I can guarantee you that the bike you start racing on will not satisfy you for very long (in fact I would almost bet that you will be hankering for something faster before the ned of your first season), so you will always be looking to improve or replace your current race bike
You will become just another addict like the rest of the racing community who just have to have that last extra part or fraction of a horsepower and will find a way to pay for it, and then be in denial about the true cost and time involved when it comes to arguments with your better half (I've been there already!).
I'm not trying to put you off by the way. I'm sure you will love it as soon as you start. But please don't think that you can do it cheap or that after the initial expense it will be cheaper, coz it seldom works like that once you have 'the bug'.
Good luck |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2010 - 11:24 am: |
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In Club racing, pick a bike that can be entered in multiple classes and run as MANY classes in which you're allowed to get points and make EVERY RACE you can. Show up often and ride consistently. Missing races because of broken machinery or body parts means NO POINTS.
Regional racing will get you regional points in a regional series. Don't kid yourself about national titles (if you have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it)
Racing is GOOD PRACTICE FOR RACING. Your racing Club will have a practice day which will be FAR CHEAPER than any track day.
Find the BBS for your local racing Club (CCS, WERA, ???) and start getting to know the racers and post questions as a "newbie" Legit Racers are FAR MORE SUPPORTIVE than "street racers"
GET GOOD INSURANCE - DO NOT FAKE IT. I am about out of sympathy for folks who get hurt and then need relief or support. This is racing, it is inherently dangerous. PAY FOR INSURANCE - NOT an HMO!!! YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO SEE SPECIALISTS WHEN YOUR DOCTOR SAYS SO!!! (NOT WAITING FOR A COMMITTE TO REVIEW YOUR CASE)
My injuries in 7 years have totalled nearly $250K (so far).
Pit Support gear can be decided on while you're learning and determining if this is truly something you want to be doing. If you're willing to wait 5 laps before HAMMERING it, you don't need warmers. Warmers will let you dial down the speeds by lap 2-3 on most tracks and just hit it that much harder from the get-go.
If you are not using warmers, you can use Moto-X type side stands, no generator, no stands.
Do the research. You ought to get RRW and look at the ads for racing stuff to do your own pricing - and then check the racing organizations classified sections online to get used prices on bikes, warmers, transponders, etc.
Don't compromise on: Helmet, leathers, boots, gloves, spine protection or insurance. Everything else you can play by ear. |
Dieseldreamer
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2010 - 07:09 pm: |
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Whats RRW? I hope I don't get nearly as many injuries as you have....
Erik |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2010 - 08:15 pm: |
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http://www.roadracingworld.com
Get the paper version - the ads are half the value of the monthly subscription.
I think Cycle Gear has it on sale at each outlet but subscription is well worth it.
Regardless, spend time on the BBS for the racing organization with which you plan to race. |
Greg_e
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2010 - 09:25 pm: |
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Racing insurance through what companies? I assume the standard street insure with medical does not cover racing injuries. |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2010 - 11:44 pm: |
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CHECK your insurance. Sanctioned racing is often specifically excluded. If you have to buy a stand-alone racing ONLY policy, it's about $1000 A MONTH. |
Gearhead
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2010 - 07:09 pm: |
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Talent + Speed = Cost
Be realistic as to how quick you think you'll be.
Start out with a stripped stock bike with a belly pan, number plate and a set of race tires and try it.
That's literally how I started, no generator, no tire warmers, nothing!
As my speed and comfort increased so did my added equipment, suspension tweeks, more tuning, etc.
Believe me, you'll never get on the track unless you just do it! I only raced three events per year for the first couple of years and it was so much fun, much more than any track day I'd ever done! That's all I could afford so that's what I did. I didn't worry about points, I worked on my racecraft.
You'll have SO many fellow racer that will help you, also. Yes it's humbling to be an alright trackday guy and find yourself struggling not to be last in your first few races! You'll learn to leave your ego at the gate, if you don't, you'll be on your head!
Now, I'm still an amateur after 4 years but my lap times have been slashed form where I started but all my fellow competitors have improved as well so I'm always working on my skill set and there's always someone faster. But every now and then even this old dog gets a bone!
I hope you'll join us at the track, it's the most fun and the most challenging thing I've ever done, I just wish I'd started earlier!! |
Gearhead
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2010 - 07:11 pm: |
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P.S. I'll be 54 in February, so it's never too late!!
Go Buell Racing!! |
Paint_shaker
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2010 - 11:15 pm: |
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A fat bank account helps immensely!! LOL
Race bike= $5,500 prepped and ready to go.
Running a full novice season last year= $7,000 or so...
Having an absolute blast on the track= Priceless!! |
Dieseldreamer
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2010 - 11:37 pm: |
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How do u get a $5,500 race prepped bike?!? 7K i venture to say more than that... maybe if you don't factor equipment in.
I am really hoping to get a 2004-2005 XB12R for like 2500K to 3K. Just so long as the frame is good and the bike is in decent shape, I'm not worried about to much more. Once I get it, things start coming off.
How often do you guys do oil/trans changes? Every race? Every other? I mean if I use AMSOIL I would hope it lasts more than a few races. |
Greg_e
| | Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2010 - 12:59 am: |
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Keep an eye on the for sale section, once the racing season is over I bet you'll start to see the race prepped machines show up again. |
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