| Author | Message | ||
     M1combat |
What RPM range exactly? | ||
| Fst_tyms |
2500 - 4000 approximately. This is where I get the weird responses and sputters. Also seems to need more throttle to get going. It seems that I need to open the throttle MORE to get the same GO out of it. | ||
| 2k4xb12 |
me thinks, me goes shopping for a pda  very soon Yup, my sentiments exactly... In fact, I should have my Palm Tungsten T2 in a few days. I actually ordered it so I could use it with the new "Ease Diagnostics" software I picked up for my F-350 diesel... I wouldn't mind having a second use for it  | ||
| Henrik |
Daves; Bomber said it well. Some (or many??) of us have been through the "Step Child" attitude from dealers, who during season will have absolutely nothing to do with Buells. Was once told by a NYC dealer, that I could bring the bike in and he'd get to it in a month or so. When I asked if I could bring it in on that particular date - a month later - the answer was no ... he wouldn't even order parts unless my bike was sitting in his shop. And that's just *one* of *my* many stories. Hence the hesitation to be forced into dealing with and actually paying hard earned $$ to someone who would rather have you go away and stay away (after you've plunked down your $$ on a new bike of course)  Henrik | ||
| Fst_tyms |
Don't feel bad Henrik - they treat us the same on the west coast too! | ||
| Daves |
I often forget how bad some dealers treat Buell riders. I too, have read,heard many examples of it here and elsewhere. I do not have an answer for that. Ride to the edge! Dave daves@h-dappleton.com | ||
| Bigbird |
The manual says that the DT is looking for like 5.2 to 5.6 degrees of throttle opening. It's all about voltage. If you can find out what voltage the tps sensor is putting out at 5.2 and 5.6 degrees you can make some jumper wires and use a voltmeter to set the darn thing. Sorry dude, but that won't work. When you reset the TPS you don't actually move the TPS itself. The spec of 5.2-5.6 is how far you open the throttle with the idle adjustment screw AFTER the TPS reset has already been performed. It's also a good idea to do an AFV reset at the same time. Both the TPS and AFV functions are accomplished by telling DT to send the appropriate commands to your bike's ECU. It would take more than a voltmeter at home to reset these functions of the ECU. As for the frequency of performing resets, Buell recommends the resets get done every 10,000 miles, if memory serves. For many riders that's not even once a year; for some of us it could be twice a year. Big deal! Even if you are a 20,000 mile per year rider how much is it really going to cost you? If your dealer tells you they can't get to you for a month, find another one who can and use it as an excuse for a road trip. In the real world I don't know exactly how often the TPS and AFV MUST be reset to keep the bike running optimally, but one suggestion I'd like to make is to make sure you keep the throttle body clean. If junk builds up in the area between the edge of the throttle plate and it's bore theoretically it could affect idle and part throttle performance. Aside from that I think the main reason to perform a TSP reset every 10k is to compensate for wear, but that's just my opinion. | ||
| S1eric |
I like the XBs but can`t ever see myself owning one. Yes the TPS reset is A BIG DEAL!!! Most HD shops cater the the HOG crowd thats where the money is, Cant blame them really. But the Buell owner who needs a TPS reset has to get in line at the service dept. Thats ok, but the line is usually long. I don`t know about you but I work during the week. Try getting it done on Saturday. HA the jokes on you. The service dept is booked on Saturday with HOG members bolting tassels on their rides. But you can leave your ride and we`ll call you on Monday or Tuesday with the total. What about belts breaking, But thats another subject. How about performance upgrades. I have read all the posts and seen the dynos. It seems some of you guys can`t find the correct "MAP" for your combination of parts. Yes I work on my tubers, Simple really. If I owned an XB I would be doing all the wrenching. But still the jet I put in my carb cost $4.00 and 15 minutes of my time. S1 Eric 97S1 98S1W | ||
| Glitch |
It's not the cost, or the need for an excuse for a road trip. I have the money, and ask my wife if I need an excuse for a road trip. It seems to me the only people that don't seem to have a problem with the exclusivity of said tool are the people that have ready access to it. This is not a put down, just an observation. Had I known there was a tool such as this would I have bought an XB over an S1W? Simply put, no. I love my bike, I just hate that HD has decided that they hold the keys to repair and diagnostic tools. "Here, I've got this great bike you can spend loads of money on, just don't think you can do without us for maintenance 'cause you've got another thing coming if you think we'll let you work on it."  Edit: Looks as though HD/Buell maybe losing a sale or two by being stingy with the tool box. edited by glitch on May 10, 2004 | ||
| José_quiñones |
or cause some people to buy HD's instead of Buells because HD will gladly sell you the Screaming Eagle Race Tuner for your "Hotrod" Softail or Vrod....... Buell has it, they use it for their race bikes, but they choose not to sell it to us mere mortals. Hopefully the aftermarket steps in, there is a demand for this level of FI tuneability for Buells. | ||
| José_quiñones |
Imagine if S&S made this available for Buells:  Features: S&S Variable Fuel Injection (VFI) Module Features: • Easy Installation – Module replaces stock unit and plugs into the stock wiring harness. • Easy Programming – Existing maps supplied by S&S can be loaded by anyone with a PC. • Flexible – Maps may be easily optimized to accommodate variations in individual engines. Easy Tune software is included with the module. • Altitude Compensated – Automatically adjusts for altitude variations. • Live Tuning – Make changes to maps while the engine is running. • Self Diagnostics and Actuator test functions. • Engine light can be programmed to function as a shift light. • Unlimited Programmability – Pro Tuner software is available for racers and professional tuners. Pro Tuner software allows the creation of maps for custom engine configurations for which S&S has not supplied a map. Pro Tuner software must be used in conjunction with an eddy current or other steady state capable dynamometer and an exhaust gas analyzer or air fuel ratio meter | ||
| Henrik |
Glenn; unfortunately not even a whole-day-trip will get me to a Tri-state dealer I'd want to deal with - I've tried most of them. Trust me - aside from one time when Dr. Gadget a.k.a. Jay had done the work - I've had to redo some of the "work" performed by the "Factory Trained" but utterly un-interested tech every single time ... Henrik (realizing that he's yelling in the forest ... ) | ||
| Daves |
How much for the S+S box? Divide that by about 30-60.00 for a TPS reset. Believe me, I understand the frustration some of you feel with the, bring it in and leave it for ????? and we'll get to it treatment from your dealer and some of you don't have many choices in who to take your bike to. And yes, I have always had access to the "tool" I don't know how to use it but I've never had to deal with some of the issues some of you have. But, the fact remains, I have sold lots of FI bikes to very happy customers and they aren't always in the shop having this done. I am not trying to argue(really) but I still think some of you are making a mountain out of a molehill here. Anyone that passes on buying the Buell and goes with a V Rod or Softail so they can buy the race tuner box has more issues that I can help with! I mean really, who would even consider that? Ride to the edge! Just go ride your Buell and quit worrying about the TPS! Dave daves@h-dappleton.com | ||
| Bigbird |
What a shame. The common thread in the dissention seems to be more oriented towards the way some dealers do business with their Buell customers, and less oriented towards the cost of getting the TPS reset or the actual time it takes to do the job. In other words what I'm picking up is that many of you feel you don't have convenient access to decent Buell dealer support. Where I work we charge $33.00 to reset the TPS, AFV, check for codes, and road test as needed. We will gladly perform this service with an appointment OR as a walk-in, provided it's not 5 minutes until closing time. And yes, we do this no matter how busy we are, which happens to be EXTREMELY busy this time of year. Under most circumstances we will also change your oil or replace your tires without an appointment, and the oil change labor is free provided you purchase the oil & filter from us at regular prices. Since we know how backed up our appointment log can get sometimes, we reserve Saturdays as "first come, first serve" for maintenance and small to moderate repairs. That way everyone has a chance to get timely service, and in the two years I've been employed there we have not failed to at least have a look at every bike that shows up on a Saturday morning. These offers are available to Buell customers as well as HD customers. There is no discrimination. When will some of these dealers learn that Buell has potential, but their customers require service and support just like any other brand of motorcycle? Without decent end-user service the success and growth of the parent company is threatened. The only thing I can suggest to you folks is to find a dealer who is proud of the Buells on their floor and understands what customer service is. If you find those two things chances are you won't need to worry about how to reset a TPS, much less come up with the ca$h to purchase PDA's and expensive software once it becomes available. | ||
| Koz5150 |
Hal's runs "first come first serve" type service everyday, of course people usually start lining up before 5:00 am. I have seen guys go to the bar, get lit up, grab a sleeping bag and spend the night on the asphalt with their bike. | ||
| M1combat |
How about this... I don't have a phone. If I need to make an appointment with a dealer I have to ride about 35 miles one way just to setup the appointment. I don't want to. The road there is straight! That wastes my tires. I would rather be able to reset the TPS "if I need to" and take it for a spin. Why waste the dang time needed to deal with ANYBODY? Even Hal's? Why? I'm perfectly capable of reseting a TPS if I have the right tools. I fix computers for a living. I know how to operate software AND hardware. I don't need to reset my TPS right now but if I did I could sit right here and order the tool online from Dave and a couple days later I'd be good. The next time I needed one I could just grab the ol' PDA and go to town. What if I'm chasing a niggling little problem and it pops into my mind that it could be the TPS? I take it to the dealer and wait a day at least and find out that's NOT the problem? No thanks. I want to do it myself immediately and know right then and there. It's not the money. It's the Sunday that my local dealer is closed and the fact that I have to be to work Monday. Sure, I have a beautiful Mustang Mach 1 and a Sonoma GT and a Honda 750 and a KLR600 but I want to ride my Buell to work and I need a TPS reset. I want the tool. Am I supposed to trust the tech who doesn't notice me wile he walks away from my bike just after her 1K service saying "XB-L-M-N-O-P"? No. Don't worry, he's not the tech that works on Buells. The tech that does work on Buells rides a Duck Monster - Go figure. I don't mean to bitch at anyone in particular but I don't see the proper business model behind keeping the proper tools I need away from me. It's the same reason I hate Microsoft. | ||
| Bomber |
I've read with great interest many people's tales of Buell addressing customer and Magazine test rider's complaints, and the stories have been true. we've seen huge increases in reliability, build wuality, fit and finish, cutting edge designs brought to life and available to damn near anyone that wants it . . .. what I havn't heard is HDI taking the service issue by the horns and trying to do something about it . . . .. . most of the Harely riders I know have exactly the same beefs about getting their sporties, big twins and v-rods worked on . . . long lead times to appointments, poorly performed work, having to re-do the work you just paid for •••••••••• ain't just Buell riders, although the scorn may start a bit earlier into the shop that if you arrive with a Fat Boy Heritage Springer Classic Limited Edition . . . I got no cure, as there is none until the pain is felt in the stock price, which doesn't seem to be happening . . . . the hardest thing in the world, in my professional experience, is convincing a successful business person to change their mode of doing business .. . no one wants to jepordize their good thing | ||
| Henrik |
Oh, Dave; we *all* have issues  Gregg - Buell owners are lucky in your part of the country. Henrik | ||
| Bigbird |
I don't mean to bitch at anyone in particular but I don't see the proper business model behind keeping the proper tools I need away from me. It's the same reason I hate Microsoft. Well I'll see if I can explain it to you all, because it serves multiple purposes on multiple fronts. Of course keep in mind that I am not speaking for the motor company, and these are just my opinions. 1) Everything that is done in Digital Tech starts with a VIN and mileage entry. Dealers are required to set their Digital Tech systems to auto-sync to HD at least once a week. I would assume DT keeps a nice log of bikes, events, trouble codes, etc., which is then uploaded to HD. This system provides them with timely information about failures in the field. Theoretically it could possibly also provide them with certain information about modifications (i.e. race kit), but that is speculation. I don't have any proof that they are looking at that stuff. 2) Proprietary technology will encourage many owners to return to the dealer for service, or at least get them in the door for a TPS reset. That is a chance for the dealer to look at your tires, brakes, and other items that you could wind up purchasing while you are there. Yes, they DO want to sell you something (imagine that) and no, it's not against the law! Simply put, from the dealer and motor company's perspective a little bit of proprietary technology is good business, and there is absolutely no crime in that. People tend to think that because they purchased a motorcycle or car they are owed all kinds of stuff afterwards. Nobody twisted your arm. You didn't have to purchase it. You could have purchased a Yamazuki. But then you would be in an even worse situation, maintenance wise. My comments are NOT directed at M1combat, but I do wear thin with certain people who think a manufacturer or dealer is entitled to nothing and should give everything away. They are a business and they are entitled to make a profit. Trust me, they aren't getting rich on 30 dollar TPS resets. Also keep in mind that they haven't locked up the whole bike so you can't even change your own oil. Instead they've built a motorcycle that is mostly very easy to work on, with many operations easily done with home tools. Try performing a major service on a late model injected metric sport bike and you'll see that there is much less the average guy can do at home to one of those compared to the XB. 3) Since we've already established the fact that HD doesn't want the owner to have these tools why should they spend the tens of thousands of dollars required to develop a home version that they'll never make their money back on? I dealt with this in the car business. I was a Technician for 20 years before getting into the motorcycle biz. When aftermarket personal scan tools first became available it was many years after computers had found their way into cars, and typical cost of admission was in excess of 2 grand. The software updates (plug-in cartridges) were several hundred bucks a year. The average car owner couldn't justify or afford to spend all that money to find out why the check engine light came on. So they paid their local dealer or garage and grumbled about it. Hmm, I see a trend here...  It is only more recently that the cheap $150 OBDII end user scan tools have become available at your local auto parts store, and believe me those scanners don't do squat compared to the real thing. Having said all of that, I think if you wind up with a PDA and Buell software for less than a grand (once it comes out) not only did you get a bargain, you also didn't have to wait 10+ years like we had to in the car biz. Lastly - M1combat, you seem like a reasonable person. Surely you don't expect that your decision not to own a phone in this age of technology should have any bearing on this discussion, do you? I'm sure it's a PITA to deal with service issues without a phone and I have empathy for your situation, but isn't that your choice? | ||
| Bigbird |
} Gregg - Buell owners are lucky in your part of the country. Yes, and we're lucky too. Our Buell service business is experiencing explosive growth so far this year. | ||
| Bomber |
bird -- all good points, and I'm glad you're business is growing . . . .. from the sound of your posts, you and your employer have earned it now we just gotta get the rest of the distribution network on board, and then I'd gladly pay for a TPS reset (and, btw, by more stuff!) | ||
| Daves |
Gee, Bomber, do you mean that if we take care of our customers needs, treat them fairly, act like we want their business, fix •••• right the first time, then they will do more business with us?  Doesn't seem like that hard of a concept to grasp to me. But that's just me. Ride to the edge! Dave daves@h-dappleton.com | ||
| Glitch |
1) They don't have to keep tabs on me by keeping up with VIN numbers and stuff like that. Every time they've sent me something in the mail to fill out I gladly do. Why should I be forced into feeding their statistic machine? 2) Proprietary technology Is a shameful business practice. "The only way we can get them back into the store is to force them back, then we can make more sales when they come in and wait two or three hours to do a fifteen minute job" I come back to the stores that treat me well, that's the way to get repeat business. 3) Develop a home version? It's already developed. They call it a Digital Technician. And since when did HD sell anything at a loss? I'm in the technology industry, so I know this is very feasible. And Bigbird, don't take this the wrong way, I'm not fighting with you. I just believe strongly in the "Right to Repair Act." Just think of the independent garage that has to turn away business cause he hasn't the tools to work on our bikes, we aren't against independent garages, are we? | ||
| Mikej |
Gregg, There's good and bad aspects to the whole issue. Some handle authority well, some abuse it. Some see proprietary tech as a way to track issues and stay on top of trends, others see it as a way to track loopholes and reduce warranty expenditures. Some first-come-service centers work, other's are full within the first 30 minutes of the day (I'm really surprised that we don't have scalpers taking up the service slots and selling those slots like ticket scalpers do at music and sporting events). There is no easy answer, but there is plenty of room for improvement. Sour grapes time as an analogy for proprietary controls of technology: Years ago I had a pickup truck (Ford F250). It was running very bad so I took it in for a computer diagnostic analysis at the dealership a few blocks down the street. They came back with saying the truck needed virtually all the electronic controls under the hood replaced, and then even provided me with a printed out list that totalled over $1000 without labor. I said thanks but I'll take the truck home. Nursed the truck home and began to work on it myself figuring that I'd replace the items on the list one at a time as and when I could afford them. As I was beginning to work on the truck I found that the carb was loose (four screws that attached the base plate to the carb from the bottom side had backed off causing a major vacuum leak). In the process of removing the carb to retighten the screws I found a short section of vacuum line that had a hole melted in it (probably from when the water pump went out and the truck overheated). I also noticed a short section of wire going to a sensor on the other side of the carb with the insulation melted off that was randomly shorting itself out. I bought 6" of vacuum line for less that 50cents, wrapped the wire with some electrical tape, tightened the screws on the carb, and put it all back together. The truck ran perfect again. Factory trained and certified personnel, and they either couldn't find the real problems with the truck, or thought that they could scam me with over $1000 in unnecessary repairs and parts. Prior to that I had some distrust with "trained" mechanics, after that I had a very strong distrust of them. If they'd come out and said what the problem was right off with the truck fixed and running for the $50 they charged me for the diagnostics then I'd have been one happy and trusting fool. But instead I went away thinking they were either a bunch of scamming b'tards, or were a bunch of papered idiots, or both. Back to Buell/Harley: Some certified mechanics really know their stuff, but others only know how to pass enough tests to get papered. Some service shops take care of customers and know how to identify the quick fixes from the ones that will take more time. Some service shops will take the time to ask customers if they need the work done immediately of if they can realistically come back at a later date, some just put the customers into the queue without regard for the customer's personal situation. (I have seen customers waiting at a dealership for 6 or more hours waiting for a spouse of friend to come get them when their bike had broken down.) Deming said to fix the system, not the people. The TPS reset issue is a symptom of a larger system process problem. Until someone takes the time to diagnose the overall problem then little things like the TPS issue will be all that some people need to decide that the hassle factor has become too much for their continued ownership experience. There are several good to excellent shops within my geographic region, and yet I know several people personally who have tired of hassles with them and have abandoned the brands supported by them. The shops are trying to fix things, but sometimes their fixes make things worse (first come service for example). I used to be able to schedule in a time slot and expect for the work to be done when scheduled. Now I have to talk to the service writer who enters me into the queue without regard to my personal situation and then expects me to be happy as I have to find a way home and a way back later on at some future undetermined delayed date. You can speak all you want about your local situation, but until you actually take the time to hear what others are saying about their personal situations and accept their personal situations as being valid, until then you are only adding to the problem. Work the issue from your side of the fence, feedback the issues into the system at the dealer meetings, at the service schools, at internal meetings, to your own network of industry contacts. Some see all this as just a bunch of whineing, I see it a legitimate cause for concern that needs to be addressed at a corporate and world wide level. I once wrote a lengthy article and both submitted it to a publication and to a focus group. The focus group thought it was great and brought many things to light that they were unaware of. The publication supposedly binned it, and then probably passed it around the office for laughs (from what I've heard from a few indirect insiders). The problem, as I see it, is one of acting the part of Mr.Magoo, big smile on the face, bumping into walls and customers constantly. All is well with the world, and all who complain are just a bunch of whiners. Mr.Magoo is alive and well and sits in the cubicle next to Dilbert. Congratulations on the explosive growth, I truely hope it continues to grow for you. But I'm afraid that many other shops will not see that same growth. I'm going to offer you a challenge: Contact the person who recently posted about his shop not even having a scanalyzer tool. Find out the name of the shop and verify if they are even authorized to purchase a tool. If so try to help them to make the necessary contacts to purchase one. And if not try to help the Buell owner locate a dealership who does have the tool, then contact that shop with contact info to help them get in touch with the customer to get his problem resolved. One specific case where you could do some good outside of your own specific situation to help fix the system and quiet down one whiner and turn that person into a happy camper. You can say you have enough to do where you are, but you are in "insider" with access to info we outsider customers don't. People like Daves and Bubba and Spidey and others have gone beyond the call to help on many occasions, as have others, many of whom have acted behind the public view simply to help out a customer and fellow enthusiast. I think I'll bow out of this conversation now since my fingers are worn out and I have work to take care of now that one process has completed so I can get back to work. No flame intended, no insult intended, no whine intended, just looking for resolutions. I don't have an easy answer, but at least I try to help when I can, and yes I've given direct feedback to local shop owners about their broken system that has ended up helping out some of their customers due to the owner making adjustments to their system. And with that I depart this topic. I'll not intentionally speak of TPS reset issues again unless I find I have the need to have one performed someday. good day. | ||
| Bigbird |
1) They don't have to keep tabs on me by keeping up with VIN numbers and stuff like that. Every time they've sent me something in the mail to fill out I gladly do. Why should I be forced into feeding their statistic machine? With respect to the digital tech I don't think those are the kinds of tabs they are trying to keep. The "statistic machine" as you call it is not really the point. Entering your vin number and mileage allows them to track what has failed, the point at which it has failed, and it also allows them to relate that information to the specific build date and versions of parts that are installed on your motorcycle. That data is used to detect failure trends and gives them an opportunity to come out with a timely fix. That's not all bad, is it? Digital Technician does not require the customer's name or address-just the vin and mileage. 2) Proprietary technology Is a shameful business practice. It depends on the application. For instance, some of us (yes, I'm dating myself) remember when you could not purchase a phone. It didn't matter how much money you had. You couldn't buy one. The only way you could have a phone was to lease it from ma bell. Shameful? Yes. Monopolizing? Yes, and that kind of business is what got them broken up into little pieces. Conversely I'll once again revert back to the fact that no one made you buy a Buell. It's not a monopoly as there are many other brands you could purchase. Furthermore, unlike a customer's relationship with the phone company in the old days you are free to develop and/or purchase aftermarket tools and software to service your motorcycle in the manner in which you see fit. The only stipulation to that is if you want to keep your warranty valid you must service the motorcycle in accordance with manufacturers recommendations. No, that doesn't mean you have to take it to the dealer. You simply have to be able to PROVE you have done all maintenance and service in accordance with manufacturer's recommendations. 3) Develop a home version? It's already developed. They call it a Digital Technician ??? Home version??? Digital Technician is NOT designed with an untrained end user in mind. There are many things the home user could do with Digital Technician that would wreak havoc on the motorcycle. And since when did HD sell anything at a loss? You might be surprised to know. It does happen from time to time. I just believe strongly in the "Right to Repair Act." Just think of the independent garage that has to turn away business cause he hasn't the tools to work on our bikes, we aren't against independent garages, are we? No, I'm not against independent garages. I too believe strongly in the "right to repair act", but actually you are probably indirectly referring to the Magnusson-Moss warranty act. It states that for purposes of providing warranty coverage a manufacturer cannot REQUIRE you to use their service shop or parts unless they are willing to provide them to you free of charge. HD does not REQUIRE you to use their shop for maintenance, service, TPS resets or anything else to keep the warranty valid. They only require you to be able to prove that you have maintained the vehicle in accordance with their recommendations using parts that meet or exceed their requirements and approved repair techniques. Using 3rd party hardware/software to reset the TPS will not void your warranty, provided the hardware/software does not damage the electronics or otherwise cause the motorcycle to function in a manner in which it was not intended to function. Nowhere in the Magnusson-Moss act was it suggested that a manufacturer MUST supply (or otherwise make available to you) tools and equipment for you to service your vehicle just because you think going back to the dealer is a pain in the arse. Quite simply you are free to pursue 3rd party/aftermarket solutions for resetting your TPS provided it doesn't hurt or alter the motorcycle. Also put quite simply HD does not have to sell or give away the technology they develop to service their motorcycles. It's their intellectual property, period. I understand how frustrating this must be for some of you folks, but if it's that big of a hurdle perhaps you would be happier riding something with points and carburetors. And don't assume I haven't been caught by the same situation. I just had to pay the BMW dealer to reprogram the computer on my girlfriend's dual sport (2001 F650 GS) because it was surging. BMW knew there was a problem and developed new programming (mapping) for the ECU, BUT I HAD TO PAY FOR IT!!! So what did I do? I took the motorcycle to them, which took 3 hours out of my day (they are over an hour away), left it with them for a week until I could get back there again, then took 3 hours out of a 2nd day to pick it up, and finally I wrote the check with a smile on my face because at least now the bike was fixed. By the way it cost twice as much as we charge to reset your TPS | ||
| Bigbird |
MikeJ, Unfortunately I too don't have the time to address all of your statements, but I'll have a crack at a couple of them: First, WRT your situation with your Ford there is no replacement for a good, honest tech. If he is bad, untrained, dishonest, or otherwise an idiot you are done before you even got started. That doesn't mean the industry is devoid of decent, educated techs. You simply need to find one or fix it yourself, as you already did. You can speak all you want about your local situation, but until you actually take the time to hear what others are saying about their personal situations and accept their personal situations as being valid, until then you are only adding to the problem. I have taken the time, heard what they have said, and even offered a solution, even as feeble as that solution may have been. FIND A GOOD DEALER!!! I can't do it for them from the Service Manager's office of 1 local dealer. I'm not privvy to that kind of information. However, you folks can help each other. If you have a good (or bad) dealership experience post here about it, but do so OBJECTIVELY. Don't friggin rape your local dealer in public just because you had to wait 5 extra minutes to pick your bike up when it was done. If you do have a problem give them a legitimate opportunity to adress it, and then let them have it if they are CLEARLY wrong and refuse to cooperate. Work the issue from your side of the fence, feedback the issues into the system at the dealer meetings, at the service schools, at internal meetings, to your own network of industry contacts. We already do, from the owner on down. Why would you assume that one dealer pulls so much weight that he can change the way in which so many other dealers do business? I'm going to offer you a challenge: Contact the person who recently posted about his shop not even having a scanalyzer tool. Find out the name of the shop and verify if they are even authorized to purchase a tool. If so try to help them to make the necessary contacts to purchase one. And if not try to help the Buell owner locate a dealership who does have the tool, then contact that shop with contact info to help them get in touch with the customer to get his problem resolved. One specific case where you could do some good outside of your own specific situation to help fix the system and quiet down one whiner and turn that person into a happy camper. You can say you have enough to do where you are, but you are in "insider" with access to info we outsider customers don't. People like Daves and Bubba and Spidey and others have gone beyond the call to help on many occasions, as have others, many of whom have acted behind the public view simply to help out a customer and fellow enthusiast. I will state publicly and for the record that I am available to answer questions and help Buell owners handle service issues to the best of my abilities. I will also (once again) tell you that I am not privvy to the kind or depth of info that you think I am privvy to, and I cannot meddle in another dealer's affairs for obvious reasons. I think Dave and others who are in a similar situation will back that statement up. If I called Joe Blow's Harley-Davidson/Buell and started telling them they need to buy this, that, or the other, or help Jim Smith in Iowa because he is complaining on the internet I'm going to earn myself a lecture and/or reprimand from some people at the motor company AND get promptly hung up on by the dealer I am calling. My suggestion is for the person who said his shop doesn't have a scan tool to actually seek out and visit an authorized Buell dealer, because they will have the necessary equipment to service the bike. It's part of the franchise agreement. If he can't get his situation handled that way he is welcome to contact me and I will do whatever I can to get him some assistance. But I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I suspect he hasn't followed SOP up to this point, and IMO the owner of the vehicle has to initiate the service contact with the local AUTHORIZED DEALER. You can't expect the dealer to just "know" the bike needs service or that the customer took the bike to an independent shop. That's not the dealer's responsibility. One last thing - I'm not offended or angered by the points you bring up at all. Just as you ask me to look at this from the customer's perspective I ask you to look at it from the dealer's perspective. I can't help the fact that there are lousy dealers out there. I can't change them, I can't make them buy stuff, I can't make them help a customer, and "telling on them" to the motor company doesn't work because I'm a 3rd party who wasn't there to witness the situation in question. All I can offer is advise, a customer service contact at the motor company if needed, and if you happen to be in my neck of the woods I can offer great service. But I really can't do some of the things you are challenging me to do. I wish I could. | ||
| Glitch |
That's not all bad, is it? No, not all bad. Not all good either. Like I said, all they have to do is ask, not force. Besides, if a bike is pinging, why should I have to make an appointment, give up my bike for a couple of days (at the dealers convienance), just to get the timing checked and if that be the problem, have it set? Conversely I'll once again revert back to the fact that no one made you buy a Buell. Again, if I had known that I wouldn't be able to do my own maintenance, I might not have bought an XB. No, that doesn't mean you have to take it to the dealer. You simply have to be able to PROVE you have done all maintenance and service in accordance with manufacturer's recommendations. Yes you do have to take it back to a dealer. Who else has the tools needed to do the work needed to keep the warranty? ??? Home version??? What I meant was that the technology is already there. They don't have to re-invent the wheel to come up with a "home version". It does happen from time to time. HD or at the dealer level? I'd be willing to bet HD has done nothing at a loss without the expectation of getting something out of the deal. HD does not REQUIRE you to use their shop for maintenance, service, TPS resets or anything else to keep the warranty valid. Only the tools to do the job. Using 3rd party hardware/software to reset the TPS will not void your warranty Ain't no such animal as 3rd party hardware/software to reset the TPS. Also, it's not just the TPS reset. I too believe strongly in the "right to repair act", but actually you are probably indirectly referring to the Magnusson-Moss warranty act.I don't think I am, but I've been know to be confused before. Here's a fact sheet. It's automotive based, but I was told it was all vehicles included in the act. Oh and by the way, thanks for your insight. It's nice to have someone on the inside listen. | ||
| Daves |
Wow, what long posts you two have! Good points made by both and enjoyable reading. Ride to the edge! Dave daves@h-dappleton.com | ||
| Glitch |
Oh, and Greg, if I was in your area, you could safely bet, I'd be visiting your dealership, as you've pretty much proved to me that you're one of the good guys. Just as you ask me to look at this from the customer's perspective I ask you to look at it from the dealer's perspective. Fair enough. I still want the tool, so I can do it myself. I want to do it myself. | ||
| Mikej |
Fair enough. We all do what we can. It's not so much how much pull one individual has. It's more like a revolution where one speaks to two who speak to four to speak to eight and so forth. Eventually it will be like at one forum I attended where we in the audience brought up a point to the folks on the stage and the whole room spoke up at once to the point that the stage people were looking at each other and scoping out where the exits were. I envision the day when things like Court has mentioned about required minimum inventory items and levels and like others have requested about maximum bike down time limits will be both mandated and openly adherred to. But until then we do what we can. I'm hungry, I think I'll go eat something. |
