| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
JM, Emissions regulations is what will eventually do in air cooling. Surely you jest. That's one of the biggests myths around. No truth to it whatsoever. JQ, A 450 twin as fast as a 600? You believe that? I also understand that Aprilia is having tough times, looking for investor(s). | ||
| Smadd |
"Certainly the point that I was trying to make was not whether anyone's bike was running too hot - but if it was running at the right temp range." Oh... I understand... and I'm enjoying reading this thread too... not knocking it. This is a great forum for these discussions. And yes... one of the worst things is to have a motor that runs far too cool. I guess that I was just trying to point out that overheating isn't too common a problem for us. Carry on!  | ||
| José_quiñones |
You don't need a lot of HP if you are just pushing 308 pounds like the old two stroke Aprilia RS250, why not, it's possible, let's wait and see what it does. | ||
| Dyna |
Emissions regulations is what will eventually do in air cooling. Surely you jest. That's one of the biggests myths around. No truth to it whatsoever Add in the word NOISE in front of emmisions & thats very probable of killing off the air cooled v-twins. | ||
| Brucelee |
You know this noise pollution kills me. I drive daily on the 5 here in San Diego and most days with the top down. The noise from tires (SUVs and trucks are the absolute worst) is deafening. Compared to that noise, you can't even hear my xb. Moreover, the noise from the avg rice burner with pipe is WAY louder than any air cooled engine I ever heard. I am not counting HDs with straight pipes which are supposed to be illegal anyway. The govt is getting dumber every day. That compares to fighting terrorism in priority? Sorry for the rant but getting rid of a bike that gets over 50 MPG to make the engine quieter is in my view, indicative of how f'up the govt is. | ||
| Dyna |
I'd much rather build 10,000 bikes and make $30M profit than build 20,000 bikes and make the same $30M profit But heres the important part, 20,000 bikes sold vs 10,000 means more $$$ for the factory & the dealers due to increased parts sales, service, & hopefully those owners are satisfied & they will purchase another bike from your company. I would much rather have 20,000 owners buying oil, tires, having their service done, etc etc, than 10,000. Bruce..I agree 100%. Noise pollution is a bunch of bullshit. You can even have a bike with drags on it so long as you arent rapping the pipes at 3am in a residential neighborhood. I would much rather listen to a bike go down the street then listen to some of those stereos in the passing cars, or the semi trucks. | ||
| Aesquire |
It's the main reason VW aircooled engines went away. Pollution too, carbs & such were a bit primitive then. The P-51 used the Meridith effect, hot air expands & proper ducting recovered like 200 hp in thrust. ( on a 2000 hp engine) | ||
| Blake |
The noise regulations are not likely to change. Dyna, You'd sacrifice 50% of your margin to sell more parts? Not good business in my opinion. Bottom line, Buell is in no position to jump suddenly from a 10,000 bikes a year production level to 20,000. It won't happen, so forget about a cheap Buell superbike, even if they decide to build one, Buell is NOT about building cheap bikes. Take that to the bank. We need to start a BadWeB petition against excessive noise emissions regulations for motorcycles. | ||
| Brucelee |
>>I would much rather listen to a bike go down the street then listen to some of those stereos in the passing cars, or the semi trucks.>> That is a big 10-4. I know it is a taste issue but I want to just whack some of these assholes with there stereo rap music! ' | ||
| Brucelee |
BTW- Doesn't it seem realistic that we will see the VROD engine in a Buell someday. I can see that working, nice looking and sounding engine that is already being built and has room for improvement on what is already an impressive set of power numbers. Given the right appearance etc. I would buy one! | ||
| Unibear12r |
I read where when the noise test was first introduced they required the bike to pass from left to right by the sound equipment. Suppose to have been to go after Harleys cause almost everything that made the most noise was on the right side. While I know not all are right drives it was supposed to be one of the reasons for the switch to belt drive. Look at XB intake & exhaust on left, frame covers most of heads & plastic tubes on valve train to deaden noise. | ||
| M1combat |
I though about that very much as did many on this board... As I recall we decided it would probably be too heavy and too big. The power is nice, but the 9000 RPMs would need to be raised. I think if it is anywhere near the works it will be very much redesigned and really just a new 60 degree V-Twin. From what I hear, Erik has said that an air cooled twin will be in "a" Buell for a long time. It seems to make sense to me too... Hence the 12R sitting next to my 72 Mach-1 in the garage. | ||
| Unibear12r |
According to Buell its the watercools having a hard time with smog regs right now. I've also read where the rods on the 12s are SHORTER than on the 9s. So they must have changed the crank to get the stroke. Some of the mags have been bragging on the duel plugs used by other makers but Harley did that on the 1200S for a few years with little notice. It was a nice performance increase. Bet we will see some improvements like this for the XB over the next few years as sales hooks. Somewhere I came across an article on one of the Buell riders who stated that his team had tested a "prototype" 6-speed trany for part of last season. Could this be a Buell 6-speed soon to show up in production XBs or am I really lost here? | ||
| M1combat |
"Could this be a Buell 6-speed soon to show up in production XBs or am I really lost here?" As soon as one of those comes out it gets moved straight to the top of my list. | ||
| Unibear12r |
One could only hope. It would be nice if a new 6-speed would retrofit back to 04s & 03s too. Would you care to make a bet on that? | ||
| Blake |
Rods don't affect stroke, only the crank affects stroke. Shorter rods on the 12 allow the use of the same cases, cylinders, and heads with the increased stroke. Baker has produced for some time a six speed overdrive tranny that will fit the tube framers. One of them went 208 mph at Bonneville over a year ago. | ||
| Unibear12r |
Got ya. Change rod and you only change where piston moves up & down not how much. Thanks edited by unibear12r on April 01, 2004 edited by unibear12r on April 01, 2004 edited by unibear12r on April 01, 2004 | ||
| Unibear12r |
Yes I've heard of the Baker but was curious as to the "prototype" comment. Too bad I can't remember who said it or where. I'll have to dig through my mags again. | ||
| Jmartz |
As for noise I heard EB mention one time that the Buell with two large chambers was at a disatvantage in noise regulation. A water cooled, 4 cyl, smaller chamberd engine could produce more power at a lower noise level. Hotter engine produce more NOx when N2 and O2 break up and mix match each other. The government killed 2 cycle engines in road vehicles and now seem to be after air cooled designs. The CARB has enacted stringer standards for motorcycles that have been adopted by the EPA. It wont't be long when emissions testing will be mandatory for motorcycles in markets like Atlanta or Houston where air quality has been designated as severe. There won't be many carburated HD's on the road in those places. | ||
| 1320 |
I listen to rap and hip-hop at every redlight!! I've gotten to where I pull up a little and fill their car with diesel exhaust when I can... | ||
| Brucelee |
I've gotten to where I pull up a little and fill their car with diesel exhaust when I can... I love it! | ||
| Hootowl |
Longer rods will also keep the piston closer to TDC for more degrees of crank rotation, increasing power and reducing the tendency to detonate. No I can't back that up, but I read a lengthy article in Hot Rod magazine about it a couple of years ago (a few times) while I was being held captive on a airplane flying from Seattle to Amsterdam non stop. 18 hour flight. I got drunk twice. | ||
| Reepicheep |
With regard to retrofitting some mythical new 6 speed in old XB's, even if it is possible you would have to split the cases to do it. So just sell your old antiquated XB9S 5 speed to me cheap, and go get the new XB12S 6 speed  | ||
| Creepingmee |
Hmm, I am not looking at the parts sheets right now, but I seem to remember that the rods were the same... Cranks different, pistons different. I was thinking that meant that they moved the pin higher... Anyone got both parts books for the 9 and the 12 handy?? | ||
| Blake |
Pretty sure the rods on the 12 are shorter. | ||
| Aaron |
12 rod length = 6.926, stroke = 3.8125 9 rod length = 7.270, stroke = 3.125 | ||
| Chainsaw |
You'd sacrifice 50% of your margin to sell more parts? Not good business in my opinion. Harley made a crapload of money selling chrome do-dads and t-shirts last year. Average Harley rider spends $1000 per year on accessories (according to Harley's stock propaganda) Microsoft sells the XBOX at a loss because the games are the big moneymaker. I'm guessing Willie G. and Bill Gates know what they're doing. | ||
| M1combat |
So the l/d of a 12 is 1.817? Thank you Aaron. So, based on this statement found on another board... "If the previous attempts that worked well at l/d of 1.7 were already ultralight internals then someone who uses heavier (and cheaper) compents might need to use an l/d of 1.8 or more to achieve similar results." Can I assume that a higher l/d ratio is better from a reliability standpoint? | ||
| Dyna |
Thats the way to do it Chainsaw, sell more product at a cheaper price yet maintain your overall profits & actually increase them by selling high priced "goodies"..think race kits & race ecms. | ||
| Blake |
Yeah, Harley is selling their bikes at such a deep discount so they can sell and make more money on parts.  Bottom line, you don't price a product based upon anything but what it is worth in the quantities you can produce it. If you can build 10,000 units, you set the price to sell 10,000 units. If you can build 20,000 units and the demand is there, but only at a lower price, you do the math, and if it's worth it, you build 20,000 units, and price them accordingly. |
