| Author | Message | ||
     Jraice |
While riding at the track this weekend I had to spend $200 and miss several sessions because of a fouled rear cylinder plug. Anybody know what could cause this? I started the bike, road to the staging area and as I was signaled to enter the track the bike started running on one cylinder. Switched plugs and the running cylinder switched. Got a new plug, worked fine. Whats the cause? Oh and besides installing new plugs, is it even worth trying to get more from my dealer to compensate for the funds I had to pay to fix it onsite as well as missed track time? I called them twice, spoke to the same guy both times he said he would call back with more info and never did. I am thinking they should bring me along on one of their employee only Buell sponsored track days or something! Oh and I got the bike dyno'd while it was with the mechanic. Only running 86hp at the rear wheel! The A/F chart was like a slithering snake and was WAY high. Running super lean. Said I should easily be able to get 100hp with a tune. | ||
| 03firebolt |
So are you saying you think the dealer should be responsible for the lost track time? I don't think they could be held accountable. Too many IF's. But thats weird. usually you see it running rich if your having a problem with fouled plugs. Unless you completely burned the plug up? What did the plug look like? | ||
| Jraice |
I believe the mech might've cleaned it. I am holding onto it right now though. White, a bit of brown near electrode. And legally I am sure they have no responsibility but to install new plugs (that I will demand, and what type should I use?). But is it not worth going in there, saying because this happened I lost track time and had to spend $200 to have a private mechanic get the bike running again so I could ride the rest of the day the next day and just even get my bike home? I doubt they will do anything about the fueling because of the fact that I have a drummer but if they could give me a new map to richen it up, then I'd call it even and be pretty happy with them. It really did bug me though that something so simple could fail, cost me a lot of money, some missed track time and they didnt even call back with any more input or to offer me a ride to the dealer etc from my buddies place in San Mateo. | ||
| 03firebolt |
Yea white with a bit of brown sounds leaned out. I don't know your exact specs. Like your mileage and how old the plugs are, etc. But have you changed your map since you installed the drummer? I've always used the Buell race plug. I like it a lot. Im not sure exactly of the part number. Im sure you could get it from American Sport Bike. But yea. I seriously doubt they would even consider compensating you for the money lost, I know it sucks. I don't know about your dealer, but the dealer I go to would never even think about helping me out with a map either. Its technically not their responsibility to help you tune your bike. Thats why all the guys pay the big bucks for the race tuners and dyno time. Its not cheap to sit on the dyno all day, and they don't usually have maps for aftermarket Buell exhaust, so really any map would have to be custom. From my experience, pretty much all fuel maps are based on a bike to bike kinda thing. We could have the same exact bike and use a totally different map. Everything decides what goes into a map, temps, humidity, air pressure and elevation, its hard to just generalize it and get peak performance. | ||
| Fast1075 |
Actually, white with a bit of brown is not fouled...fouled is black with deposits, oil, or fuel which shorts the electrical path so no spark jumps the electrode gap. A picture says a thousand words. | ||
| Brumbear |
Sorry Bro you aint entiteled to much more than a coffe for $1.25 min and Fast is right unless you idled the bike for to long and overheated the machine or maybe just beat hell outa it and the bike went into skip fire mode which in due time your machine would run fine and someone fleeced you of 2 "C" notes | ||
| Jraice |
I thought it might've been the skip fire mode but the bike sat overnight in the cool air. We ran it for 30 seconds, shut down. Front header was burning hot, rear was warm. Switched plugs, ran it again and now the rear was the hot one. He cleaned the plug, I dont know what it looked like before but the bikes running way lean so I am guessing it burnt out rather then fouled from gas etc... | ||
| Fast1075 |
Post a good pic of the plug if you can. One that is looking down into the plug from the top...the only way for it to be shorted would be from aluminum from the piston....bad mojo indeed. But if the insulator was the least bit brownish, I doubt it was so lean as to burn a piston. On a razor edge tune, the insulator will be greyish to white...the electrodes should still be greyish...if the side electrode is blued...you are definately too lean...a good max power tune will leave a narrow black "smoke ring" nearly at the bottom of the center insulator (you need to see a pic to understand...and a magnified illuminated viewer to see it well). There are some decent pics of plugs for comparative reference on most of the plug manufacturer's websites. If you are ever at a race where a plug manufacturer has a rep on site...pull your plugs and have him view them...and listen to what he says...there is an astonishing amount of info about the motor that can be found by a skilled plug reader. (Message edited by fast1075 on September 30, 2009) | ||
| Hogs |
FAst1075, That being said.... There are wrong ways and right ways to even take a plug reading on the road.... One can`t just take plugs out and have a look.. there is as I say a right and wrong way to take readings and on Fuel injection makes that even harder.... | ||
| Fast1075 |
Good point Hogs....Where I was going was assuming he has a dead plug...a post mortem on it would be interesting. We need a "how to conduct a plug reading" thread or better yet a tutorial sticky in the KV. (Message edited by fast1075 on September 30, 2009) | ||
| Sloppy |
From what you're describing it doesn't like a "fouled plug". Weak combustion, maybe? Plug reading was in the days of selecting main jets and you need to go through a specific procedure on it. Could be the plug wires, terminals, coil, ignition timing, etc... or could be the injectors? With regards to a rebate or warranty, I don't see any reason why the dealer should help out. Track days are "closed course" events. I feel it is the riders responsibility that their vehicle is in good shape. Say your brake fluid had old fluid in it which would be fine for street riding, but under the stress of a track day you had brake fade which caused you to crash the bike - should that be the dealer's responsibility too? With regards to your dyno session, remember that those portable dyno's measure RWHP, not crank horsepower. You should see ~ 15% drivetrain loss. If you've made modifications to your bike yet expect a dealer to fine tune it with a new map is also a big ask. My opinions and we all know how they vary... | ||
| Iamarchangel |
From your story: nothing wrong with plug, you actually describe a good plug if you were actually doing plug tests. No mention of gap but even if that was it, the plug wouldn't look like that. Depends on how long you were staging if heat was a factor but I believe that the engine light comes on when it goes into skip mode. And skip is only the rear cylinder. Electrical issues are a nuisance to describe after. However, you've isolated it to the plug. There's only a couple of things to check on that: gap; dirt in the spark area; loose nut; broken internal electrode. Compensation: anything you get would be charity and/or goodwill. Come on, you went to a race track without spare plugs or the ability to change your own plugs. Lessons learned: plugs, tools, a buddy, or two, and don't panic and hire the first guy available. My track experience from long ago was that most people would lend a hand, and plugs, free. Has it really changed that much? Part of racing is the gamble that it won't cost more than gas and admission. From some of the stories posted here, you got off light. Unless you find that the plug had a physical defect, forget about the dealer. Work on your trackside mechanical skills. Sorry. | ||
| Brumbear |
maybe the dreaded mouse attack on the plug wire I had that happen last year as well | ||
| Fast1075 |
He said the dead cylinder followed the plug. Rear cylinder was out, swapped plugs, rear cylinder picked up...front cylinder out...sounds like a plug (or wire) to me...in any case if replacing the plugs cured the issue....... And I understand this is the age of digital controls and fuel injection...but reading a plug (correctly done) is still relevent...in this case no one including me even brought up what heat range plugs are in the motor... There are three tools that I will always have handy...my plug viewer, my borescope, and my leakdown gauge.....now that I have an XB, I will add a laptop, cable and software... |
