| Author | Message | ||
     Buckinfubba |
M1 yes it would run rich at wfo going up the mountain. but so would a carb that was set up at a lower altitude and then go up the mountain at wfo. but most times your riding you are in closed loop so I wouldn't worry about it. your not in the open loop that much. and a carb can not compensate for humidity changes , temp changes, lower altitudes, higher altitudes. the DDFI works and it works great. and if its a mountain road you can't go at wfo for very long atleast no mountain road I have ever seen. could be bad for the health. open loop is pre programmed , thats it | ||
| Bads1 |
Damn look what I started here. | ||
| Bomber |
bubba . . . how can you loose what ya never had? some folks just gotta worry about sumpin . . .let 'em, sez I . . . . more room on the road for us | ||
| Buckinfubba |
bastard....I hate you dana   | ||
| M1combat |
"and a carb can not compensate for humidity changes , temp changes, lower altitudes, higher altitudes. " It can if it has external jet adjustments, it just takes a savy user is all. It seems to me like the O2 sensor should still be used in the open loop mode so the ECM can adjust the fuel delivery rate up or down depending on altitude. I suppose though, if the bike already runs a little lean, then WFO at high altitude would just help it run proper or a little rich. Sounds logical to me so maybe it's best this way. Just for the record I'm not attempting to convince anyone that the sky is falling or that they'll end up with a holed piston if they leave their bike stock... I'm just trying to identify a spot where the bike isn't perfect. I'm actually glad I'm having a hard time doing that  . Yes, I AM nitpicking, it's a feature of my personality. | ||
| Dynarider |
I suppose then that you'll soon be cautioning us all about that a Buell's tires heat up during use, or that a Buell's exhaust pipes get so hot that they can burn you on contact, or that if you leave a Buell idling in an enclosed garage it could kill you. Wanna hear another conspiracy... It's been rumored that Buell is using special noise attenuating devices on their motorcycles in order to pass EPA noise emissions tests. Buell attempts to hide the covert devices underneath the engine, but they are detectable to the knowledgeable observer. Please, think before you type WTF ism that all about? You yourself admitted they run lean. I said nothing about a conspiracy. You in some goofy argumentative mood today? | ||
| Fullpower |
regarding altitude compensation: each time the XB is operated in closed loop ( cruise) mode, an "adaptive fuel value " is set short term memory. this "value" is used to adjust the fuel delivery in the open loop mode. what this means is everytime you back out of the throttle and run at steady cruise, the ecm sniffs the rear cylinders exhaust via O2 sensor, and records new fuel value. so if you back off the throttle for a curve on the way up the mountain, you will have nearly instantaneous, automatic altitude compensation. the system does actually work. for instance, i am riding a stock XB12 around with a drummer exhaust can, and a snorkelectomy, i have substantially increased the airflow through my engine, and have been running around at sealevel and below freezing temperatures. under these conditions i am running very cold dense air, at a higher rate than the factory exhaust would allow. the factory stock ECM has done a perfect job of compensating for this condition. i have had absolutely ZERO pops, snorts, coughs, or backfires in 400 miles of february riding. again, this is a stock ecm, and has comensated automatically for the drummer exhaust, the lack of a snorkel, and cold dense sea level air. on my carbureted sportster i would have had to run a much larger slow jet, and a size bigger main for winter operation. but on the XB this is all done automatically. | ||
| Fullpower |
compare your DDFI buell to any brand new carbureted harley, coughing, farting and surging, and limping along on half choke until up to full operating temperature. that is the current state of the art in EPA mandated carburetion. yes the carburetor can be easily fixed with a set of number drills, but the ddfi IS NOT BROKEN FROM THE FACTORY. imagine that? they did it right. like buckinfubba sez... GET ON YER BAD MOTORSCOOTER AND SNIVEL. er, RIDE. thats it. | ||
| M1combat |
If you are correct FP, that is exactly how I figured the ECM worked. On a side note... You say that you have a Drummer running on a stock ECM and it runs fine? If so I'll be getting one earlier than I thought... | ||
| Captainplanet |
My bike has always run fine with the stock ecm with both the Latus and my modified pipe. Sure it would run stronger with a little more richness in the fuel, but it is no where near so lean that it would cause motor damage. I think bigsherm is running a stock ecm with a straight pipe. I am working on adding a little fuel with a dfo box. I just haven't had time to tune it yet. | ||
| Nevco1 |
I have a Techlusion DFO on my X1 along with the race ECM. Had it dyno tuned almost two years ago and is still running great. Now for the "Dumbest Questions of the Year"... 1. How often should I have my TPS reset assuming there have been no changes to the bikes set up? 2. Should I disconnect or zero out the DFO before having the TPS reset? 3. If I get the TPS reset, do I need another dyno tune or should everything be status quo? Logic tells me that if I get a TPS reset it should not effect the rest of the system. However, I am not clear if the DFO will effect the reset. Fortunately, the DFO settings if zeroed out are repeatable without a dyno tune. Thanks for your input concerning this matter. | ||
| Blake |
No need to get your TPS reset. If the bike is running fine, don't touch it. Over the long term wear in the throttle mechanism may start to affect it, but I doubt it. You are good to go Bill. Fullpower, Thanks for explaining about the AFV. That is exactly how I understand the Buell DDFI operation. Dyna, If you fail to see my point, I'll not explain it further. Sorry. | ||
| Nevco1 |
Hmmmm...Thanks Blake. That is really good news. | ||
| M1combat |
That was my only question about the DDFI... Does it apply the "adaptive fuel value" to the open loop mode. I'll check the service manual. Not that I don't want to believe what has been said here, but I prefer to have proof. I'm sure the two of you understand that. | ||
| Dynarider |
Completely fail to see your point Blake. We both agree that Buells as well as all other bikes run lean in order to pass epa emissions. What have I stated that differs from that???????????? | ||
| Shotgun |
A great explanation of DDFI, simpler than the manual here: http://cds.h-dnet.com/docent/cds/BUELL700/ref_content.htm | ||
| M1combat |
Thank you, I didn't have time to read the manual before I saw that but it answered my question w/o a doubt. I still need to check the manual though because that seems to be for an X1? It mentions in that article that if the voltage read by the DT is greater than .02V after performing the prior procedure that it needs to be replaced. That seems a bit excessive to me... couldn't they have designed it in such a way so that you only need to replace a part of it? Is there a way to measure that voltage from a plug somewhere so you could at least check to see if your TPS needs a reset? I am assuming that the DT places the ECM into a diagnostic mode and it wouldn't otherwise report that voltage though. | ||
| Opto |
M1, that was my only question about the DDFI... Does it apply the "adaptive fuel value" to the open loop mode. I'll check the service manual. Not that I don't want to believe what has been said here, but I prefer to have proof. I'm sure the two of you understand that. There is no proof except ride the bike and draw your own conclusions. Fullpower's account of DDFI is spot-on, and I have no doubts about the stock ecm. The service manual (workshop manual?) won't say much and the answer to your question is yes. I have beat my head against a brick wall trying to sus out this FI system, and now accept and trust it (from learning about it by living with it). It's OK. | ||
| M1combat |
You guys don't seem to understand where I'm coming from. I'm a tech guy for a living. I'm all about technology. I like the DDFI. I'm sure it does a bangup job. I'm a realist. There has to be a weakness to the DDFI (not that I care all that much). I want to learn everything about it for the sake of learning, not for the sake of complaining or starting a fire... I am quite sure that FP's desc. of DDFI was spot on. I just wanted to be certain. Another thing that was stated in that paper was that there should be a dial to calibrate the CMP... Where is that? Is that part of the Scanalyzer or DT? I just want to check mine is all. | ||
| Anonymous |
BadS1, Here it is, direct from me. I cannot believe I said we were exempt, even if you say you have it on tape. I'd like to see it...if for nothing more than to try to understand how any such thing could come out of my mouth!!! I don't think I had even had a drink! Buell is not exempt from any emissions regulations. What I remember doing at the 20th (thank you to everyone who were involved, by the way) was giving you guys the presentation I had given to the Japanese media. In it I explained that we are able to pass the standards because our motors warm up quickly, and because we have superbly refined combustion through lots of work on chamber shape, ports, fuel injection and exhaust. We are not running super-lean at all, as anyone who has ridden one of our bikes can tell you. We are burning the right amount of fuel and burning it thoroughly. There is no spit back, no extended warm-up, and no overheating, all of which would be indicators of running lean. Also, too lean pushes up NOx (oxides of nitrogen) emissions, which would definitely put us afoul of EuroII. I am very proud of what the powertrain folks at Harley-Davidson and Buell have done with this engine. It is the highest output air-cooled motor of any Harley-Davidson motor, and is also the cleanest (much cleaner than the V-Rod). Japanese manufacturers have been publishing literature bragging about how their new motorcycles meet EuroII standards, using both catalytic converters and air-injection. EuroII is easier than 2008 California, and, yes, we pass it right now without any of that bolt-on stuff. Oh, one more thing I said was that the air pumps and converters are oxidizing/burning wasted fuel. Which is why our bikes do so well on mileage. So, which company really has the modern technology in these days of fuel concerns? The ones that bolt on a bunch of extra stuff to burn up fuel they wasted in the combustion process, or the one that burns the fuel efficiently in the first place? Oh, yes, and by the way, catalytic converters reduce NOx and HC, but produce nitrous oxide, which is a growing concern as a global warming issue. In short, a catalyst does not burn fuel, but catalyzes...which means it changes it chemically. And, also, cats require a richer mixture to work, in short you have to waste fuel in the combustion process in order to activate the cat. So, although cats help in some ways, they do have issues. And they add weight and slow you down!!! (Hey, no snowmobile comments)Better to burn it right, I say. Hope this helps. I can't get magazine guys to write stories on this kind of stuff, cause it doesn't sell magazines, so it's nice to have a place to post this. | ||
| Blake |
"There has to be a weakness to the DDFI" Why?  | ||
| M1combat |
Not that said weakness would be a weakness compared to the same feature of another FI system, but a weakness compared to the overall perfection that is the rest of the DDFI. More like the weakest link really than a weakness as such. I guess sort of a Zen thing in a sense... | ||
| Buckinfubba |
Thanks anon... now everybody say loud and proud Get on your bad motorscooter and ride | ||
| Reepicheep |
Like I said at the beginning of the thread:
I was serious. | ||
| Blake |
Actual technical knowledge being shared online... I just shed a tear. <sniffle> THANK YOU Anony!!! In defense of Dana (BadS1), I think he was questioning if Buell was possibly exempt. His words got a little scrambled though. Feel the love. Donald (M1) I follow you now. My answers to what some fallabilities of a DDFI system might be are...
How's that? | ||
| Bads1 |
Anony I know that it was not said that BUELL was exempt I was just trying to get a better respective of what that all meant that I read in Cycle World,And how it Applied to BUELL....no offense the presentation was awesome. edited by bads1 on March 04, 2004 | ||
| Daves |
Anony, Feeling any better? Going nuts yet? Ride to the edge! Dave Iowa HD/Buell (Buell Cycle Center) | ||
| Daves |
PS, Did you get our card? Ride to the edge! Dave Iowa HD/Buell (Buell Cycle Center) | ||
| M1combat |
"Singular sampling point of O2 sensor. If the front cylinder develops an intake leak and begins to run lean as a result, the O2 sensor's singular location on the rear cylinder's exhaust header will not catch it. Or conversely if the rear cylinder develops an intake leak, the DDFI will adjust accordingly and the front cylinder ends up running rich. " Theoretically then... The front cylinder would always run a "tad" bit less lean than the rear because theoretically the rear cylinder should be running warmer and the front gets the same treatment as the rear (given my partially educated guess that a cooler cylinder will run slightly more rich given the same fuel delivery/timing/etc). "Having to rely on a shop to perform a TPS reset. Someone here on the board commented to the effect of "Why not include the auto-calibrate operation withing the ECM itself, just back off the idle, snap the throttle, push a button on the ECM and be done with it?" I thought that was a great idea. " Me too, with the addition of checking a reported voltage w/ a VM between the throttle snap and button push. To get the proper angle after the reset there could be an LED that illuminates at the proper angle. You could even have a "TPS Light" that illuminates as soon as the TPS is out of spec. | ||
| Blake |
I would be VERY hesitant to make ANY assumptions about relative temperature and mixture between front and rear cylinders on an XB. I have it on very good authority that the ducted forced air cooling system does an impressive job of maintaining the temperatures of the two cylinders within a very small margin. Proper angle after reset? Just set it to idle at the right speed. The angle is just to get you close. |
