| Author | Message | ||
     Gbaz |
1- is the primary oil seprete from the engine oil? (i think it is but can not see anywhere saying that it is) 2- the clutch plates are lubed with the primary oil and not the engine oil? (again i think it is, and appears so from the shop pictures) if this is so, is there a reason not to use oil with friction modifiers in the engine as long as you do not do so in the primary? this may not be an issue, and i could be mixing my bikes up. Thanks | ||
| Xbrfirebolt |
Engine oil only in swing arm. Primary oil (Formula +) in primary and it oils the transmission too. | ||
| 1_mike |
Friction modifier..why..? Just use a good synthetic in both locations and keep it as cool as possible. I've got Mobil 1 in both the engine (engine oil) and primary/trans. (gear oil). Mike | ||
| Ochoa0042 |
word says that you should use nothing other that harley oil in the primary, because anything other will render your stator useless, I blew it off.. then my stator failed not so far after I found out that legend. Its no legend to me now, only use harley oil in the primary, or else (insert evil monkey) the primary oil takes care of the p-chain lubing, transmission lube, and clutch plates. engine oil is take care of lubing the cylinders and timing system i dont see why you need extra friction modifiers, any oil does that job. but your on your own there because i dont know much about this subject   | ||
| Sloppy |
STOP WITH THE RUMORS AND THE HERESAY!!! THIS IS LIKE TELLING PEOPLE TO STOP EATING PORK CAUSE THEY'LL GET SWINE FLU!!! YOU CAN USE ANY OIL THAT THE OIL MANUFACTURERS RECOMMEND IN YOUR ENGINE!!! The problem was that folks were using certain GL-5 gear oils in the primary which, if anyone cared to read the manufacturers instructions, specifically said NOT to use it in applications calling for engine oil. But folks don't read too good sometimes or think they have a tribology degree and don't do any research. So what happens... their bikes fail. So, STOP THE RUMORS. SIMPLY CHECK WITH THE OIL MANUFACTURER ON WHAT TYPE OF OIL TO USE!!! It really is THAT simple folks... I use Mobil1, 15w-50 in both the tranny and engine. It's factory approved and it works great. | ||
| Tpoppa |
Mobil 1 20w50 & 15w50 work great in the motor and primary. I've used 15w50 for the last 25k. DO NOT USE Mobil 1 gear oil. It reacts with the metal in stator and will eventually cause it to fail. There have been quite a few cases reported on BWB. Do a search (when the search function is fixed). | ||
| Gbaz |
All sounds good. I intend to use the standard 20w50 in the primary or Formula +. I like having options, and may try a energy conserving oil in the engine if one happens to be in the recomended viscosity range. seems like it would be good stuff as long as its no where near the clutch... | ||
| Gbaz |
Cut and paste FYI on friction mods. Q & A: What Are Friction Modifiers? "What is a friction modifier? How do these modifiers help in industrial gear oil?" Friction modifiers and mild antiwear agents are polar molecules added to lubricants for the purpose of minimizing light surface contacts (sliding and rolling) that may occur in a given machine design. These are also called boundary lubrication additives. Esters and natural and synthetic fatty acids, and some solid materials such as graphite and molybdenum disulfide, are used for these purposes. These molecules have a polar end (head) and an oil-soluble end (tail). Once placed into service, the polar end of the molecule finds a metal surface and attaches itself. If one could 'see' the orientation of the molecules on the surface, it would appear something like the fibers of a carpet, with each molecule stacked vertically beside the others. As long at the frictional contact is light, these molecules provide a cushioning effect when one of the coated surfaces connects with another coated surface. If the contact is heavy, then the molecules are brushed off, eliminating any potential benefit of the additive. When the machine designer anticipates more than light surface contact (from shock loading for instance) then the designer would select a stronger type of friction modifier characterized as an antiwear additive. Zinc dialkyldithiophosphate is a common antiwear agent. This type of additive literally reacts with the metal surface when the reaction energy (temperature) is high enough. The reaction layer provides sacrificial surface protection. As the loading and metallic contact increase, the strength of additive and the strength of the reaction process increases. This leads to the use of sulphur-phosphorus based EP chemicals. The EP additives form organo-metallic salts on the loaded surfaces that serve as sacrificial films to protect against aggressive surface damage. Mike Johnson, Noria Corporation | ||
| Bumblebee |
Harley oil isn't made by elves directed by that manic monkey, the question is: I wonder what it is? Harley doesn't have their own refinery, so they buy that oil somewhere - I just wonder what the brand and product is? I have a riding buddy who works for a company who makes X-ray spectrometers, so we analyzed some of HD's oil and compared to to general market oils, it's a little different. We compared it to Chevron Delo, Shell Rotella, Castrol, Areo-Shell (aircraft oil) Pensoil and Valvoline. The closest match was Chevron Delo with a little extra zinc added. Delo is only available as a 15-40, yet the HD oil was closer to 20/50- or so said the viscometer. My guess is that you could use any 20/50 oil and you'd be just fine. Which, is by the way, what I use in the primary - and so far no problems. | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
This leads to the use of sulphur-phosphorus based EP chemicals. The EP additives form organo-metallic salts on the loaded surfaces that serve as sacrificial films to protect against aggressive surface damage. This is what causes the reaction with the stator. The Mobil 1 gear oil has (or had) a high amount of sulphur content. I've heard it has been reformulated recently. Amsoil 20W-50 is the only oil that goes into my XB. | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
Harley oil isn't made by elves directed by that manic monkey, the question is: I wonder what it is? Harley doesn't have their own refinery, so they buy that oil somewhere - I just wonder what the brand and product is? H-D sources its lubricants from Citgo. SYN3 is a semi-synthetic oil. According to H-D the formulas are proprietary, and your testing may have proved this. The bottom line, however, is that the H-D oils are not superior to other available products, and considering the source (Citgo is owned by the national Venezuelan government run by Hugo Chavez) I personally will not use the stuff. There are better, less expensive, non anti-american products out there to use in your Buell. Come to think of it, you're absolutely correct... H-D oil is made by elves (Venezuelan oil workers) directed by a manic monkey (Hugo Chavez)! Heck, even 7-11 dropped Citgo gasoline because of Chavez's wacko anti-american rantings. Think of that next time you stop to fill up at the local Citgo. (Message edited by redbuelljunkie on May 05, 2009) (Message edited by redbuelljunkie on May 05, 2009) | ||
| Saratoga |
If you really wanted to figure out what HD oil is- yes it is some repackaged form of another manufacturer's oil- you could have any one of the numerous oil analysis laboratories do an analysis with a TBN to a sample of new HD oil. Yes, they'll do a spectrum analysis to figure out what minerals and additives are in the oil just as Bumblebee said. But you'll get a report formatted consistently with what oil manufacturers publish for their products. Compare said report with those available from every major oil manufacturer. My bet is that it is a repackaged HDEO. Even though they are labeled as 40 weight oils, the cst viscosity will be close if not identical | ||
| Sloppy |
As long as you follow the API "C" and viscosity ranges described you'll be perfectly fine. With regards to sulfur in gear oil -- MOST ALL GL-5 GEAR OILS USE SULFUR AS AN EP COMPOUND! Please be careful on labeling specific brands of oil as being culprits, as it's not the brand, it's the type. And the ignorance of people for the use of the wrong fluids! Doh! There, I said it... | ||
| Old_man |
Sloppy +1 | ||
| Iamarchangel |
Had a discussion with somebody about this the other day so I might as well put it in here. 10w30 means the oil will never get thinner than 10 in the summer, and thicker than 30 in the winter (water is 1). (For the purists, there is some specific temperature.) I ran my race bike on straight oil because at that time I could get it cheaper, was only riding in warm weather and I was changing it every weekend. And yes, there's a bunch of initials on the oil container. They mean something. Know which ones you need, they're in the manual. | ||
| Old_man |
My understanding of the system is; In, say, 10W30 the oil has the viscosity of a straight 10 weight when cool and has the viscosity of a straight 30 weight when hot. | ||
| Sloppy |
Old Man has it right. On multi-vis oils you typically start with a low viscosity base stock and add modifiers for it to "behave" like a higher viscosity oil when it gets warmer. Over time, temperature and use, the modifiers loose their ability to thicken and your oil starts to behave more like the lower viscosity oil. re: paraphrased from K. Cameron Bottom line - use the oil that is recommended by Engineers on what to use. And this is all too simple - API "C", viscosity 10/40 or 20/50 depending upon your ambient conditions... I'd only recommend the use of straight vis oils IF you can preheat the oil in your tank... | ||
| Iamarchangel |
Hey, Old Man, you're right. My bad. | ||
| Old_man |
Not bad, just misled. | ||
| Skinstains |
NO FRICTION MODIFIERS IN THE PRIMARY !!! | ||
| Sloppy |
Yea, and no hamsters in the primary either! Hate to break this to the group but there is only ONE motor oil that doesn't have additives in it -- API "SA", and they're not recommended for your bike anyways... Question of the day: How do you KNOW if your oil has friction modifiers in it or not? Hint: api.org | ||
| Saratoga |
Look for the API donut on the bottle- Oil with friction modifiers is listed as energy conserving and will have EC-2 in the center of the donut. | ||
| Fast1075 |
Not only does the sulphur attack the stator in our bike engines....if you use high sulphur lube in an auto or truck transmission that has brass syncronizer rings, it will eat them up also. | ||
| Sloppy |
Answer: You DON'T know how much friction modifiers are added - unless you're the oil chemist! Some have more (EC oils), some have less, but the only one that DOES NOT have them is SA oil... BTW, I don't believe ANYONE makes an EC oil for the viscosity grades recommended for the Buell... so, and here is where it is sooo simple: All you need do is use the oil recommended by the manufacturer - API "C" and viscosity range for your ambient temperature. Now everyone can cancel their membership to the oil rumor club... (as well as the socialist party, but that's a different story...). | ||
| Skinstains |
Amsoil in both for me. | ||
| Ekass13 |
one thing i'm sure of is F+ in the primary, I've learned a lot from moding all different machines, most important, there is a reason HD says use F+. | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
Well, H-D approves SYN-3 in the primary (obviously for a reason)- so I am 100% confident in using a product that's superior to what the manufacturer recommends. | ||
| Americanmadexb |
i have used SYN-3 20w50 in both engine and primary for the last 10,000miles with ZERO problems | ||
| Saratoga |
Just changed and adjusted mine today... filled it back up with Amsoil. Removed the clutch inspection cover and Bloop! I dropped one of the stinkin' torx screws into my oil drain pan. Dammit. Had to fish through the black paint known as used diesel engine oil to retrieve my screw. | ||
| Old_man |
there is a reason HD says use F+. They sell it? | ||
| Old_man |
Seriously, When they went to a lighter clutch spring,I think, was when the started the F+ recommendation. My 03 took the same oil as the engine. The F+ may have an additive to keep the clutch from slipping with the weaker spring. This has not been verified, but is my best guess for the change. |
