| Author |
Message |
    
Rocketman
| | Posted on Monday, February 02, 2004 - 08:30 pm: | 
|
Well Spike I guess that guys Ferrari story mimics another guys Buell story but then most everyone here will tell you how reliable Buells are.
Rocket
|
Brucelee
| | Posted on Monday, February 02, 2004 - 08:40 pm: |
|
We have moved way away from the original point. Point is that the guy was going to sell his buell to buy a Japanese bike on the supposition that they NEVER break.
Anyone who has had one knows that is not so. There is NO bike that never has issues, even Honda (as was so nicely pointed out above).
|
Anonymous
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 03, 2004 - 01:18 pm: |
|
Rocket,
I may be misinterpreting what you are saying, and if so, I apologize. But, if you don't think Bimotas, Benellis, Lamborghinis, etc. have deserved to have recalls, then you don't know anything about those products. I'd sure as hell take a 10,000 mile trip on a tube frame Buell, let alone an XB, before I would take a 1,000 one on any of the above. Why don't they have recalls? Because the government can't be bothered with looking into these low volume manufacturers, and the same manufacturers sure aren't going to look after their customers. If Honda has to be forced into recalls, what makes you think a company like Bimota, bankrupt three times, is going to do it? Harley-Davidson and Buell have never had a government forced recall, they have all been voluntary. Maybe it's because they care more, maybe it's because they can afford to do the recalls. Either way, the customer benefits. |
Nevco1
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 03, 2004 - 01:31 pm: |
|
Harley-Davidson and Buell have never had a government forced recall, they have all been voluntary.
Now that is something that should be publicized. In essence, turn the markets negative concept concerning recalls into a positive. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 03, 2004 - 07:59 pm: |
|
The point I am making is simply this. In the case of mass produced Japanese motorcycles the manufacturers are in part driven by the consumer to bring the product to market sooner rather than later. Buell not been in the same race I'd assume had the privilege of time on their side when it came to development of the XB series. This of course must be a good thing for the Buell customer. On the other hand if the XB were to be the subject of many a recall, sadly like what happened to the tube framers, who knows where Buell would be now. My guess is Buell could not risk any of their customers becoming 'guinea pigs' - a wise decision by all accounts. This same, let's call it 'luxury', could not be afforded the Japanese at the thick end of the supply and demand market.
It is a well accepted fact amongst many in the business, and this applies to motor cars too, that this consumer driven demand places the manufacturer(s) under pressure to feed that demand sooner rather than later in an attempt to stop the opposition gaining what might have been ones own units moved.
Yamaha with their R1 set the standard for modern superbikes to follow. Honda revised their Fireblade. Yamaha revised their R1. Honda revised their Fireblade. Suzuki up the game with their GSX1000R. Yamaha redesigned their R1. Honda redesigned their Fireblade. Suzuki revised their GSXR. It is this constant and aggressive development that can contribute to these models needing recall simply because there isn't the time like there use to be in motorcycle development to test the pre production mules because customer demand predicts so. How many times have you heard the words 'guinea pig' used in reference to customers when their bikes are recalled?
Can I further say that your comments wrt Benelli and Lamborghini, in particular, not looking after their customers, is a little off the mark. Bimota as you are probably aware are once again up and running and I think it's important to state that Bimota build superb high quality motorcycles so never need recalls. They are hand built marvels for the most reliant upon Japanese proven reliable power plants and the odd Ducati power plant too. Bimotas seldom break down. It's further worth noting that Bimotas brave attempt to bring to market their own two stroke power plant with the worlds first two stage injector and throttle butterfly system is what eventually brought them to financial ruin. That bike, the V-Due, was plagued with reliability issues upsetting many customers in the process but in their 30 year history it's the first time the words unreliable have ever been aimed at Bimota.
Benelli it is interesting to see have had remarkable success with their Tornado, despite several development issues, never the less the Tornado is well received, so much so that Benelli are giving us a naked version. What's special about this naked version, the Tre, is rather than like common practice predicts manufacturers detune the naked version of their sportsbikes Benelli have in fact given the Tre a capacity hike and tuned it such that it will smoke its sportsbike sibling. In a dealership near you soonish.
Rocket |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 03, 2004 - 08:49 pm: |
|
Rocket,
Are we talking about incremental changes to the model line? I thought we were talking about major model revisions, you know an entirely new chassis or engine. From where I sit Buell has made a comparable evolution within their model runs. Consider the lightened flywheels, Thunderstorm 101 HP engine, DDFI, revised swingarms, different shocks, new bodywork, all manner of VERY significant refinements and enhancements were made throughout the tube framers' production run. FAR more drastic changes than Honda ever made to their sport bikes. How long did the CBR929RR run? The CBR600F3?
I'm not making my statement on the quality issue based upon recalls. I'm making it on known industry trends in quality control and from my personal experience in the field, which is not trivial. Small production manufacturers are plagued by quality problems far more extensively than larger operations. That is just a fact in the world of quality assurance. There are multiple reasons for it. Money, experience, depth of technical staff, resources for accurate and thorough testing... Big conglomerate companies have more of all of those things.
|
Glitch
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 04, 2004 - 07:59 am: |
|
Customer demand is such that a minimal amount of time is available to test each and every model produced and it is a well known fact for this reason that recalls and service warranty type work has become a necessity given the status quo in motorcycle production.
Change this to computer speak, and you have Micro$oft.
So I ask, if they don't have time to get it right the first time, what makes you think they'll have time later?
I don't think Buell has a reliability problem with the new bikes, they have a problem with the stigma of recalls. Do you think Buell would have had an easier time selling bikes if they had tried to ignore the bikes needed work, or if they did what they did? |
Noface
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 04, 2004 - 09:18 am: |
|
Great point Glitch. 
Had they chose to ignore the recalls I fear they'd find themselves in a more dire predicament.
The proven reliability of the new XB models I think are helping to turn the ship around so to speak. And as XB owners, we should all be good ambassadors when we have to opportunity to "spread the word". I know I do.
I've thrashed my XB and she's taken everything I can dish out. It still feels like it's riding on ball bearings after 14k miles and one minor get-off.
As far as unloading one? Naa... I'm gonna keep mine till the wheels fall off, or I get too old!  |
Cyclonecharlie
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 04, 2004 - 02:49 pm: |
|
Noface,
How old is to old? I just wanna know when I get there........Later Charlie |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 04, 2004 - 06:33 pm: |
|
Customer demand is such that a minimal amount of.....................
Glitch - Noface - that was NOT a reference to Buell production. That said Microsoft, nor any other computer software for that matter, can recreate what the customer can do to a motorcycle. The customer is the end of the line and the hardest test of all for any motorcycle. I'm sure Buell can substantiate this too.
Rocket |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 04, 2004 - 11:09 pm: |
|
Blake I'm not sure you and I are talking about the same thing. Quality and recall are two different issues. Sometimes both are related and sometimes not but this has little to do with what I've been saying.
I'm saying, for example, the Japanese motorcycle manufacturers in part might find themselves the subject of recalls because of the burgeoning demand brought about by customer trend. Quality or otherwise, these aggressive time scales cannot be dismissed, indeed they are possibly at the fore front of many recall issues where larger scale manufacturing is concerned. As for the smaller companies producing motorcycles, let's put Buell in here, they should be more capable of bringing a product to market with less risk of recall for two major reasons. First, they have more time to fully develop the (prestigious) product - demand being different from that of a Japanese mass producing motorcycle company, and second, lesser volume, lesser model range manufacturing SHOULD enable a high quality product.
I gather from your comments Blake, you believe the opposite to be the case? Small production manufacturers are plagued by quality problems far more extensively than larger operations. That is just a fact in the world of quality assurance. There are multiple reasons for it. Money, experience, depth of technical staff, resources for accurate and thorough testing... Big conglomerate companies have more of all of those things.
You really believe that? Well you're acting dumb if you do. If you want to buy a high end hi-fi system you would never buy a Sony. Whilst Sony might make thousands of blisteringly good reliable quality products every single one of those products will be bettered by individual companies tiny in size compared to Sony, be they manufacturing CD players, TV sets or toasters. You name one product Sony manufacture and I'll find a higher quality product the same from a far smaller manufacturer.
You want to buy a jar of honey, the best quality honey will never be the processed variety $1 a jar you find in the supermarket.
You think a Ford motor car is a higher quality more reliable product than one built by Rolls Royce?
The best sandwich you can buy, is it pre packed in a factory then distributed far and wide to surrounding shops or is it made fresh for you when you arrive at the deli?
The best furniture, is it bought from Ikea flat packed, assembled using staples and made from timbers grown in a few short years or is it hand crafted furniture made by carpenters using timbers from hardwood trees grown over many a decade, possibly even centuries, and sporting the odd dovetail or three?
Does a cobbler of many years standing make a superior quality hand stitched patent leather shoe than a similar shoe turned out from a factory using machines?
Do Buell build a superior quality more reliable motorcycle than others, and if so, who and why?
Rocket |
Brucelee
| | Posted on Thursday, February 05, 2004 - 10:33 am: |
|
Quality with a small q--absence of defects. Important to most, but of varying importance. These folks who obsess on defects don't buy Ferrari's, they buy Toyota's.
Then there is Quality with a capital Q, which is much more multi faceted and emotional. These folks are tougher to pin down, but they may buy only the Ferrari, writing off the lack of reliability and hassle factor as worth it.
Then there are the ones in the middle, who buy a Lexus and try to get both.
This is a great subject. So far, my Buell has been zero defect and has tons of emotional quality, ALMOST up there with the Ducati emotional content. To me at least.
|
Rocketman
| | Posted on Thursday, February 05, 2004 - 07:34 pm: |
|
Brucelee - Ferrari's are like haemorrhoids. They're red and nearly every arse hole gets one.
Rocket |
Brucelee
| | Posted on Thursday, February 05, 2004 - 10:50 pm: |
|
Good one! I have a 911 and will someday move up to a Ferrari. Just for fun of it.
Thanks
|
Rocketman
| | Posted on Thursday, February 05, 2004 - 11:53 pm: |
|
Ah yes Bruce, at least Ferrari knows where to put the motor <grin>
Which 911 mister?
Rocket |
Brucelee
| | Posted on Friday, February 06, 2004 - 10:47 am: |
|
1999 Carrera Cab. with the 6 speed. Triple black. Nice ride, I am enjoying driving it up the coast highway these days.
All this and a Buell too!
Life is good, no?
|
Davefl
| | Posted on Friday, February 06, 2004 - 10:56 am: |
|
I've not had problems with any of the Ferrari's I've had through my hands
Ferrari's are like haemorrhoids. They're red and nearly every arse hole gets one.
Rocket, just what are you saying about yourself? |
Twincamfxd
| | Posted on Saturday, February 07, 2004 - 01:01 am: |
|
So far I have owned a '01 Blast, '01 sportster, and a '01 superglide.
All of these bikes had their inherrent problems, the 'glide being the worst, but I am currently saving for a used cyclone.
Why? Because nobody knows if the next bike\car\boat they buy will be a problem.
Here's my point. I had a jeep wrangler which was a real P.O.S. I sold it and bought an Isuzu Rodeo, with that whole "if its japaneese it must be better" mentality. Now with 60,000 miles, I have replaced the starter ($300 and I did the work), alternator ($180 and I did the work), my power windows dont work, It eats up alternator belts like nothing I have ever seen, and most recently the "bulletproof" 3.2 ohc v6 is knocking.
Now, I am fanatical about maintenance and I do take very good care of my vehicles. but it really does not matter where your vehicle was made, it is simply a game of russian roulette. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Saturday, February 07, 2004 - 04:37 pm: |
|
Dave I never owned them as keepers, just traded them on. This is not a get out clause though - I am an arse hole sometimes!!!
Brucelee the 911 is a great looking car and one that has stood the test of time. I've only ever driven one 911, the Carrera 4, and I enjoyed it. One thing that impresses with Porsche is how they make a very powerful sports car, sometimes super car too, so damn comfortable in every aspect of its ride, handling and creature comfort. I've owned the odd 924 and 944 and have ridden in several other 911's and they all behave this way. That said I'd like a drive in the new 911 Club Sport, the one with all the creature comforts stripped out. Enjoy.
Rocket |
Brucelee
| | Posted on Saturday, February 07, 2004 - 10:42 pm: |
|
I am enjoying the 911 and am impressed as to what a fine overall road car this is. Then again, for 96 large, it OUGHT TO BE!!!! |
|
