| Author | Message | ||
     Xl_cheese |
I replaced the battery last fall. I can charge it up and run the bike for a day or two. Stator resistance between pins is 0.5 ohms Stator AC voltage it `33V at 2000 rpm Battery voltage with bike off is 12-13V volts. Battery voltage increases with bike running and increases more when revving the engine. Everything seems to check out ok. I'm not sure why my bike is dying on me. Left me stranded the other day. I was lucky enough to be able to sputter out of a busy intersection in land it in a mall parking lot. | ||
| Froggy |
What battery are you using? | ||
| Iamarchangel |
What kind of riding do you do? | ||
| Xl_cheese |
replaced it last fall with one from sears. (correction: I originally thought it was from walmart, but I was mistaken.) I generally just ride around town to work and back. I think I'll get my battery tested and see if it's still good. (Message edited by xl_cheese on March 11, 2009) | ||
| Froggy |
I had a feeling it was a Wallyworld battery. You are not the only one that has had issues with them. Either get a real HD battery, Odyssey, or Speedcell. | ||
| Firebolt32 |
May not be the battery. The battery you replaced, you sure it was done? Pull the codes from the bike and see what they tell you. If its anything you already know, your gonna have to break it down. Juice is being pulled from somewhere. The battery is for that initial jolt, the alternator should keep it running from there. I'm by no means an expert though...just giving my thoughts. | ||
| Firebolt32 |
I type to slow... | ||
| Kowpow225 |
I'd check the stator connector behind the front sprocket cover. I've had issues with that little rascal for a long time now. | ||
| Xl_cheese |
Thanks for the suggestions! I'll take the battery and have it checked out. I'll also check all the connections. | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
This is a common electrical problem, Most people, me included, just throw parts at it until it stops happening. There is another way. The right way. Here is a definitive post by Buell technician, Jos51700,(John Self) To properly test a charging system: Step 1: CHARGE the battery. Don't do this by revving the bike, do this by charging the battery. Step 2: Set multimeter to DC volts, and connect directly to battery posts. It should read 12.8-ish to 13.2-ish. If it's lower, see step 1, or replace battery. if your battery is more than two years old, it might not hurt to throw a new one in there, unless you like riding in tow trucks more than riding on motorcycles. Step 3: Start bike. Battery should NOT drop below (ideally) 9 volts while cranking. Typically, if it'll crank the bike over at a consistant speed, for a few seconds, it's fine. This is not a true load test, but it's close enough for the homeboy mechanic. If you own a true load tester, you shouldn't be getting your electrical advice from the internet, anyways. step 4: at idle, Multimeter on the battery should read 13.5+ volts. Just off idle, to redline, should read 14.4 volts. Less than 14 is serious cause for concern, as is much OVER 14.4. If it's 14.7 or higher, go buy a regulator right now, and avoid running the bike until it's charging at 14.4 or less. Battery explosions suck. OK, less than 14 volts? Check: Battery cable tightness, regulator ground, stator connections, etc. Re-test. THEN with bike OFF, unplug stator. Connect multimeter leads to stator side of the connector. DON'T jam your multimeter leads directly into connector, unless you LOVE intermittant electrical issues. Note: now is the time to pray some previous owner didn't JAM his multimeter leads into the connector. If you've ever met one of your wife's ex-boyfriends, you know what I'm talking about. Once making contact with your multimeter, set it OHM's. It doesn't matter which stator wired you connect to, as you'll try them all. Pick one pair, measure, then swap ONE lead to the other wire. Measure, then swap the lead you DIDN'T move the first time. 3 ohms or less, you're golden. if the meter reads "open" or similar, you're buying a stator. If it reads significantly higher than 3 ohms, you're buying a stator (what's "significant"? 6 ohms or more). Now check all 3, one at a time, against ground (The engine, frame, chassis, negative battery terminal, etc). It SHOULD read open. If it reads any resistance (Ohms), at all, go buy a stator. OK. So we know the stator is not fubar'd, yet. Notice we're moving on, and we didn't ohm-check the regulator. That's because there is NO such test. Sorry. You can ohm-check it if you want, but it's not a valid test. I've measured several dozen, some new, some used, some old, some new, some bad, some good. The consistancy just isn't there. Because the regulator also rectifies, it can fail in many different ways. Undercharging, no charging, failure to rectify, etc. I've seen regulators with the backs melted off, putting out ZERO volts, smoking from the input voltage, and not having a proper ground, and they've ohm'ed out the same as the brand new unit that fixed the problem. Back to the stator. Bike OFF, switch multimeter to AC voltage. Now, this is the point where the bike can shock you, hurt you, kill you, insult your children, and knock up your wife. You're playing with AC, so no touchie on the wires, okay? Hook up, start the bike, and measure the AC output between any two wires. Got voltage? Good. Does it increase in a relatively linear fashion with RPM? Good. Honestly, at this point, I don't remember the spec, so maybe someone will chime in with it (Assuming they've read this far). If you have a service manual, it's in there. Now check the other combinations of stator wires, like we did for the ohm-check. If you have smooth, linear AC power starting at the mid-teen range, and ending up at 35 Volts or so, and the output is similar for all three legs, the stator is OK. It's the behavior more than the actual number at this point, but the number need to be reasonable enough to provide voltage for a 12 volt system. So if the stator is outputting (and if it doesn't pass the ohm-check, it won't be), and the battery isn't charging 14.4-ish, go buy, and install a regulator, and retest at the battery, looking for 14.4 (DC, you did reset your meter to DC to test the battery, right?) volts. If that doesn't fix it, let me know. Also don't forget to re-connect the stator to the regulator, before continuing on with other tests, or test rides. Don't ask how I know this. This may seem overly complicated at first, but print it out, read it, it will make perfect sense. One additional problem that is not mentioned above, is failure at connector #77, between the voltage regulator and the battery, or the wires that go from 77 to the battery. These often melt or break, so checking continuity from the connector to the battery, and checking the connector is also a good idea. I had a hidden broken wire in this area. Here is another excellent post by "Rays" that describes checking the voltage regulator. http://docs.google.com/View?revision=_latest&docid =d4rbxwr_20dq5khf&hl=en Of course, having a shop manual and parts book doesn't do any harm either. just my .02¢ | ||
| Xl_cheese |
Thanks. So I redid some measurments. Battery voltage 12.9V. Battery voltage with bike at idle and high beam (dual beam) on : 13.7V Bike at idle with low beam: 14.1V | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
Sounds as though the battery is charged, and the charging system is working. Therefore it seems to me that there could be two problems. 1. The battery is not holding a charge. 2. That the charging system is working when the bike is at rest, but not underway. So...... 1. Let's measure the battery after the bike is unused for 24 hours or so, to see if their is some kind of drain on the battery . Also note the voltage during starting: should be 9 volts, as mentioned above. 2. However, if the battery is unable to hold a charge, it probably wont start, and the voltage will drop drastically. What we seem to have here is a situation where the battery charging system works when the bike is at rest, but underway, it does not. Both Damnut and I had this very same problem at Homecoming last year. How embarrassing!! In my case, the problem was a intermittently broken wire from the infamous connector # 77 to the battery. This connector is locate in a compartment under the black plastic front sprocket cover, in front of the sprocket itself What happened was that the charging system worked in the garage, but underway, the vibration of the engine broke the connection, so the battery would not charge, or would not charge well, so that after a certain number of miles, it could be 30 or 130, the battery would finally lose charge, and be unable to run the bike. Running the battery down to those low voltages, 11 to 12 volts will quickly damage the battery, so it is not uncommon to ruin a battery trying to run down the other problems. Running down those intermittents are difficult, but starting at ol' 77 might help. Damnut put a led voltage meter on his bike, I think he got it from American Sport Bike, a sponsor, so he could see when the problem started. Someone else, perhaps the Fat Man, installed one of these single led voltmeters very nicely right in the Buell Dash. http://www.customdynamics.com/LED_battery_gauge.ht m Let us know how you progress. (Message edited by gentleman_jon on March 11, 2009) | ||
| Ochoa0042 |
I had a feeling it was a Wallyworld battery thats just ignorance, they have the top brands.. and im sure they dont have walmart-made batterys.. just because its from walmart doesnt.. ahh forgot it  | ||
| Froggy |
I have seen batteries from Walmart that have been sitting on the shelf from before I was born. Still, you get what you pay for. | ||
| 03firebolt |
+1 froggy, you def get what you pay for. haha true dat | ||
| Andymnelson |
Or just don't buy the battery that's older than you. I have bought several WallyWorld batteries for my cars, trucks and riding mower (didn't have my bike one in stock last time), and have only had one issue with any of them...and that was taken care of promptly- 2 years after buying the battery and they simply exchanged it for a new one. Your problem MIGHT be the battery, but the fact that it came from WalMart does not inherently make it the source of all electrical problems. | ||
| Sloppy |
Come on! EVERYBODY knows that Wally World is the root of all evil. Heck I'm sure they're the real reason for the economic crises that Congress put us in... Congress was too busy on getting depositions for steroid use in MLB than worry about rotten mortgage practices so it must have been Wally World... Anyways, the problem could be that the bike is not being ridden long enough between engine starts. If it wasn't for the starter you wouldn't even NEED the battery - so bare in mind that all the current that was used to turn the engine over needs to be sent BACK into the battery or else it will eventually discharge. Yeah, I know, damn physics! I HIGHLY recommend a Battery Tender to maintain a good charge level on your battery... a small, one time investment compared to the cost of all the batteries in all your vehicles. And, by the way, Wally World will be changing out their fleet trucks to HYBRID trucks - I think they have a 20% change out goal for 2009. Perhaps they are not hell spawn... | ||
| Aidan203 |
load test the battery. If its ok, check and see if there is a draw in amps. I'm not sure but on cars a good draw is about .020 amps. Its probably the same for any 12V system. Do this test with the key off, and be careful you don't blow the fuse in the meter. If the draw is too high, start pulling the fuses until the draw goes away. Your problem would be in that circuit. | ||
| Aidan203 |
(Good draw) I mean what the draw should be. Anything higher is bad. | ||
| Kowpow225 |
Jon, Your posts above are excellent. Can we get that added to the knowledge vault? Also, ol 77 is being a pain for me. How did you 'fix' yours? I've considered taking that connector out and soldering the 2 together. Can you give me some tips or other helpful info so I can get this little booger sorted? | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
Kyle, Thank you. I will try to figure out how to post these to the KV. May be Glitch will suggest the best way of doing it. I note from your profile that you are an electrician. Good profession for a Buelligan, so it seems.  What I did with 77 was to replace the connector and rewire to the battery as the wiring had broken. I had a real hard time getting the connector to snap shut and didn't realize it at first. It can be difficult because of the tight quarters. In addition, I must say that your bike as shown in your profile is particularly well detailed and very attractive. (Message edited by gentleman_jon on March 14, 2009) | ||
| Teddagreek |
Some Auto parts stores will load test it for free... | ||
| Panhead_dan |
Don't ride the bike to the load test. It can deplete the charge to the point where it won't start. | ||
| Kowpow225 |
Thanks Jon! I suppose the nine to five has some benefits beyond just the paycheck.  | ||
| Xl_cheese |
So over the last few days I've been running the bike in the garage and measuring the charging voltage at the battery. Most of the time it is about 13.8 to 13.9 volts. However I am noticing that it will drop off to 12.1 volts for about 10 seconds then go back up to 13.9. I just noticed this the last time I was running it. The first few times I could not see anything wrong at all. The stator seems to put out a constant AC voltage for long periods of time. I'm thinking the regulator is starting to go. I've tried jiggling the connecting wires to see if theres a bad connection somewhere, but I don't really see a correlation between that and the intermittant voltage drop off. | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
Cheese - You are on the right track to figuring it out. It can be very confusing the first time you do it, as there are so many variables. Let's review the situation starting with the information you have developed. The battery charging voltage 13.8 to 13.9 is too low, at any RPM much over idle. It should be 14.4 when charging a well charged battery. The battery voltage dropping to 12.1 volts shows me two things: 1. The battery is not holding a charge. 2. The charging system is intermittently failing. The intermittent 12.1 volts you are seeing is most likely showing that the charging system is not working, and the battery only has a 50% charge. It could also show that the Voltage Regulator is not working. Here is a chart that shows battery state of charge shown by voltage.  The stator seems fine if the voltage out put varies from 15 to 35 volts or so and varies linearly with engine speed. So What to do now? 1. take two aspirins 2. Load test the battery. If it fails, replace. Autozone, and other auto parts stores will do this for free. As mentioned above, if a fully charged batttery fails below 9 volts when you try to start it, you have a primitive load tester that shows the battery should be replaced. It is not to hard to ruin a battery when the charging system fails due to repeated very deep discharge cycles. Ten such cycles is all it takes. 3. Charge the battery to 100%. It will show 13.6 volts when you take the charger off, and then go down to 12.7 volts in a few hours after it equalizes and loses the surface charge. Use a 2 amp charger, don't over charge. Check the next day to see if the voltage goes low again: This could mean a drain on the battery from a wiring fault. The battery should not lose any measurable charge in a few days. 4. Retest the charging system. If you continue to see low voltage, replace the VR. These can not be tested, are easy to replace, and fail often. 5. If after replacing battery and VR, you still get intermittent low voltage, check wiring again, especially from VR to battery. Check battery ground. Let us know how it goes. Keep smiling. | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
The suspense is killing me:-). Any news, Cheese? | ||
| Xl_cheese |
OH. I bought a new regulator. I noticed as it ran some more tests on the old one that the connector was not making a good connection. The new regulator was producing a few 1/10th more Volts so it may not have been a bad idea to replace it. All I really needed to do was the clean the connector and bend the contacts in the female end slightly to make better contact. Thanks for the help all! |
