| Author | Message | ||
     Sgtbuell |
Elvis I've been down that road. Just before the XB12 was released, I heard a couple of HD techs at Tampa HD talking about the new Buells that where about to be released. I went up to the guys to see what was up and they told me that Buell was going to release a 1300 cc engine for the new XBs. Well that turned out to be a bunch of shit. What ever Erik Buell does next is fine by me. But I am not going to believe anything till I see it. | ||
| Metalstorm |
HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL! *hic* | ||
| Blake |
Anony don't lie. Take that to the bank. Who said the EPA was going to tighten noise emissions regulations? Friggin tire noise is more pervasive than any exhaust, or engine noise. Some of the foolishness proffered here is extremely disappointing. Just goes to show that some people are willing to believe most anything. A V-Rod engine would be a crap sport bike engine. Any of the current generation twin repliracer sportbikes would whoop it badly. | ||
| Nevco1 |
Nobody cares if "Anony" lies or tells the truth. The folks here are just dreaming about what they would like to see in the future. Reality and practicality have nothing to do with it. | ||
| Nevco1 |
Not to mention if the rice rocket design teams are reading this board, they are going to be so confused they may intro a retro rocket that won't sell anywhere.  | ||
| Brucelee |
I for one am not looking for Buell to make another SPORTBIKE. Geez, for very little money, anyone can go by a Litre sportbike and go faster than most riders SHOULD go given their riding skills. Why do we need another version of that when there is plenty of THAT for anyone to buy. So, speaking only for me, if I had my XB9 and suddenly it had say another 30 HP, was reliable and tractable and handled pretty much like it does now, I would buy one of those on the spot. In others words, a much faster version (like 0-70 MPH) of what I have now would be fine thanks. Anything beyond that and I will just buy a busa. >>A V-Rod engine would be a crap sport bike engine. Any of the current generation twin repliracer sportbikes would whoop it badly.>> | ||
| Rocketman |
OH, yeah, BTW, that stupid illustration bike isn't coming out either, Rocket. Thanks for the clarification dude - it's been a long time coming - from anyone. You think the illustration is stupid, or the bike? I'd say the bike looks pretty cool \ tough. What about you, care to clarify? Seems to me a Vrod fighter such as in the illustration should have sold well for Harley Davidson perhaps fitting quite nicely with an already Harley enthusiast but better still selling to someone who likes the Vrod but wouldn't own one for the riding\styling combo yet would own one if it were more akin to the fighter in the illustration. but what do I know. Rocket  | ||
| José_quiñones |
Would you rather buy "THAT" from an American company or from someone else? I would. The US 650cc+ market is dominated by custom/Touring Bikes (80.5% of the total market) The European/Asian 650cc+ Markets are dominated by Performance/Standard bikes (80% of the total market). Worldwide custom/touring bikes are around 55 percent of the total 650+cc Motorcycle market. Performance/Standard bikes take the rest (45%)of the 650cc+ pie so it's close. If you counted all the 650cc or smaller bikes the Sportbike/Standard market share would be much bigger. If HD/Buell want to expand sales outside the US, they NEED a competitive sportbike, with an engine that is perceived to be modern. There's a reason the VROD is the best selling HD in Europe, the engine has a lot to do with it. There's a reason Buells are given a hard time by the European and US motorcycle press, the engine has a lot to do with it. I'm not saying put the existing VROD engine in a Buell, but my guess is that an engine with the same architecture and sharing many core parts and built with the same tooling of the Revolution will see duty in a Buell. I doubt that HD would spend the money to develop a Buell only engine that shares no parts, tooling or architecture with an existing HD engine. The current Buell sales volume would not justify that. IMHO, YMMV and so on. edited by josé_quiñones on January 01, 2004 | ||
| Mikej |
"Ask Mikej about some of the bikes he has seen sometime. " I believe they moved some of that stuff, the fence isn't so shoddy anymore. "No offense to the dealers out there, but they generally seem to be some of the least reliable sources when it comes to these things. " The "Trevster" comes to mind. As do a few other things that are hiding in plain site sometimes. Side note: if I had won the lottery last night I would not be ready to buy a new bike. Close, but not just yet. I would however immediately go buy a bike at least 60 years old to ride around on until a new bike I like is released for general consumption. I will say this, if I managed to get hired by either H-D or Buell then all my speculations would cease immediately and I most definitely wouldn't be posting anonymously. It's nice to see what's coming 3-9 years down the road, and isn't something I'd willingly give up on except to move on to greener pastures, and even then what I was privy to would remain behind. Just your basic rules of life. YMMV | ||
| Clydeglide |
I'm not saying put the existing VROD engine in a Buell, but my guess is that an engine with the same architecture and sharing many core parts and built with the same tooling of the Revolution will see duty in a Buell. I doubt that HD would spend the money to develop a Buell only engine that shares no parts, tooling or architecture with an existing HD engine. The current Buell sales volume would not justify that. Ok this sounds dumb but based on the above let's get rid of the radiator and plumbing. Lose those annoying water jackets, stick some fins on it to cool that bad boy, then jam it into an XB frame. Stupid perhaps, but we've lost some weight and gained that air cooled thing Erik is so fond of. Not to mention many shared parts. As long as I'm being stupid, let's give it a 30 HP bump. Now you've got My attention. | ||
| Buckinfubba |
wow its winter time for sure. The only I wish for is over head cams. I don't want water just over head cams. but till then I love these bikes to death. they may not be the fastest in a quarter mile. But why would you even want to drag race this bike.but it maybe the funnest 11 whatever seconds. sometimes speed is so over rated. It is all releative I think. I truely belive air and oil cooled is enuff for the street. and yes we would have valve adj. with over head cams but i AM BETTING IT WOULD BE 10 OR 12K INTERVALS. so for most that is not that often yes maybe once a year. but the revs we could get would more than likely end this 100rwhp bone stock debate. and yes that is more than enuff. you can't and don't hardley ever use any more of that on the street for any extended period of time. oh well happy new year | ||
| Mikej |
"The only I wish for is over head cams. I don't want water just over head cams. " Dreams sometimes do come true.  | ||
| Hootowl |
I think overhead cams are a distinct possibility. The old 4 cam sportster valve train is pretty noisy (especially on Buells with low production number cams) HD is constantly trying to reduce mechanical noise in order to heep their exhaust noise and still meet EPA driveby standards. A quieter valve train is probably in the cards. $.02 Jeff | ||
| Johncr250 |
Just to clear some things up, i was the person who wrote about the Buell service guys talking about a new buell with the V-rod engine. I appoligize for cause any tormoil, seems like a ton of people about been writing about it. They simply said that a new buell XB powered by a V-rod engine (modified slightly for higher rpm power)will be released this summer at the latest, possible as early as the end of March. The bike will use the existing XB platform with some changes to the frame accomidate the new powerplant, such as radiator and airbox. All the other Buell models (XB9 and XB12) will still be offered. I`ve know these guys for almost 5 years going back to when i had my X-1 in there getting fixed what seemed like weekly. I was in the dealership window shopping at the XB12S when they told me to hold off buying one for a little while that something big is coming out soon as well as a $1000 price reduction on current models. They got into alittle more detail which is listed on my original post that someone copied here. I find it amazing that some people thing that it will never happen? The company already has the engine designed, tested, and used on the road in the V-rod for several years. After all the funds HD has spent on that motor do you think the V-rod is the only bike design to use this engine platform? I love Buells and the aircooled motors that they use. For what they are they make great HP. Using the V-rod motor isn`t selling out, its called progress. Its about 100 times more advanced than the aircooled engines, makes more hp(possibly up to 150), and with better emissions. Who wouldn`t want to ride a factory 130hp Buell? If you don`t you still have great air cooled models to choose from. I have one that i`ll never sell! | ||
| Brucelee |
As you describe it, I like the sounds of the new XBROD. Lets get one NOW!!! One related inquiry from a non-engineering type. Doesn't Ducati make an air cooled, 4 valver per cyclinder that gets like 120 HP or so. Did I make that up or is this technology already out there to be copied?? | ||
| M1combat |
OK, Sorry for the about face but... In the late 60's Ford made a car called a GT-40. They put a 351C in it and did pretty well. The 351C is a small block. They then added the 427. They did VERY well. I would like to point out though, that the car the wrestled the GT-40 from the top was the COOPER MINI (and a few other "mini" cars like the Fiat Abarth). I originally fell in love with the idea of a V-Rod powered XB but then I thought about it. It's a PIG of a sportbike engine. It's too heavy. It would be better to have a 112HP engine that weighs about the same. Exit speed is the key to going fast. I think Erik (being a player in the design of the V-Rod engine) will have the ability to redesign that engine just as he did with the sporty engine and make it lighter, better and cooler. Probably air and oil cooled but with DOHC's. Probably four valves per cylinder. I'll bet that with some machine work we'll be able to convert existing Buell cases to the DOHC setup. I'm not waiting for that, I'm waiting for the temps to warm a little this morning so I can go riding  . If it happens though, I'll be in line . I do indeed yearn for 130-150HP, and even 9K RPM's, but not if it costs weight, that coupled with torque all over the place is the main advantage to riding a Buell. | ||
| M1combat |
Bruce, You may be referring to the 749? I'm not too sure about that HP number though. | ||
| Brucelee |
I just checked the ducati website and they dont show an air cooled engine above 84 HP (but it is a 4 valver). The other ducs with over 100 HP (up to about 124HP if I recall correctly) are liquid cooled. Alas, there APPEARS to be something in the liquid cooling rather than the 4 valves deal that allows ducati to jack up the power. It is also clear that the most sophisticated DUC air cooled engine makes less power than the xb12 engine. 1950s technology rules again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | ||
| M1combat |
Yes, as I recall, the XB12 is THE most powerful aircooled V-Twin that's been released on a production bike. Now imagine that with four valves, DOHC's and about 9K RPM's. BUELL (Yes, Erik) ROCKS! Oh yeah, and everyone else that had a hand in designing this engine . | ||
| Brucelee |
So the question I have for the engineering types is, is there something about air cooling that drains HP or what. If Ducati can make an air cooled 4 valve DOHC engine, why can't they make it with the 125HP range. In other words, why do they move to liquid cooling and make the big jump in HP? | ||
| Mikej |
One word: Heat. Longer answer: Take two identical 1967 Chevelle SS 396c.i. 4-speed cars to a drag strip. On the first car drain the coolant level about half, never lift the hood, and never shut the car off between runs. On the second car shut the engine off between runs, keep the hood open between runs, and keep ice on the intake manifold between runs. Race them head to head. The cooler car will win, as long as the rest of the engine is up to normal operating temps. Mine was the second car in the mid-70's, slightly shaved heads, mild cam, headers, aftermarket air filter, otherwise stock with 3.56:1 differential and no traction bars. Ran a 13.13 1/4 mile best time dogging it off the line due to excessive wheel hop. Heat kills power. Fluid cooling is a way to control heat. The XB's control their heat very well without fluids. Pumping water takes power. Why make an air pump pump water too if it doesn't have to. | ||
| Hootowl |
My understanding is that the more holes you put in an air cooled head (two more valves) the greater chance you have of developing cracks as there is less material supporting the works. There are 4 valve heads out there, but from what I understand, the power output is not that much above a 2 valve head. Remember, the limiting factor in the long stroke motor we're using is not so much the heads, it's the piston speed. Valve float in the XB has been pushed up to 8K, but you just can't reliably spin the motor that fast. Not in the 12 anyway. We've all seen the dyno charts from Nallin showing ample breathing up to 7.5K but how long do you think a motor will hang out that that piston speed? Noise plays a factor too. Big jugs=big booms. Need big exhaust to muffle it. The short stroke high rev small cc engines do not need a huge muffler, thus they can make big power at high rpm while still breathing effectively. We're talking about production bikes here, not hopped up aftermarket. I just don't see what more valves will bring to the table. Greater breathing potential is there, but it can't be matched at the exhaust (and still meet noise standards) nor can the motor spin fast enough for long enough to make it worth doing. $.02 Jeff | ||
| Brucelee |
Well approaching it a diff way, the corvette zo6 makes tons of usable HP AND torque with hyd valves, two per cyclinder. Stay right up with a porche 911 turbo. So, I wonder how the hell they do that and what can be gleaned for the current XB. In other words, can that motor learn from GM? Did I really say that?? | ||
| M1combat |
Well, for it's weight the Buell 1203 makes a good deal of usable power and torque. Keep in mind that a 4812cc engine in a V8 config would need to be well tuned to make 412 HP. What's the displacement of the Corvette engine? About 5800cc (350cui?)? Seems to me the Buell engine is a good deal more efficient, but I'm sure it could learn from nearly anything. I would guess that the Buell engine does all that at a lower RPM peak as well? edited by m1combat on January 02, 2004 | ||
| Al_lighton |
I'm with you, buckinfubba. Keep it air/oil cooled, but give it overhead cams. But I'd want that OHC engine to do it differently than the current crop of bucket/shim valved screamers. I'm willing to give up performance I can't use on the street for simplicity and less maintenance. So anything that reduces valve train reciprocating mass (and noise) but still retains automatic valve adjusting is what I'd personally want from a new motor. Radiator? Water pump? No thanks. I can live with an electric fan. Remember the old Honda 650/700 Nighthawks? OHC but with hydraulicicaly pumped rocker pivots. The rockers were quite small, there were no valve adjustments required. More reciprocating mass than a bucket/shim system, but MUCH less than a hydraulic lifter pushrod system. Something like this is what I'd want for the street. | ||
| Bads1 |
Hey John who is your dealer and who did ya talk to???? | ||
| Dynarider |
John, what you have heard & what I have both heard & seen with my own 2 eyes are almost the same. Let the naysayers disagree & the truth will all come out eventually. Then come back & say "told ya so!!". | ||
| Bads1 |
Come on...... I just want to call them and talk to the same people he did. | ||
| Anonymous |
Rumors can be great fun, but at some point they can cause manufacturers problems. Perhaps the most dramatic case was Osoborne Computer, where news of a new model killed sales of the old one, leading the company into bankruptcy. Without giving too much away, it's safe to say: 1)There are many exciting Buell projects for the future -- and there are also many test projects that won't make it into production. 2) The V-Rod motor does not figure into Buell future model plans. 3) Future sound and emission laws can be met by air-cooled motors -- the XB12 can easily meet 2008 California standards without a catalyst with just a slight retuning; it's already close now. 4) The rumor that started this thread is wrong in every element. | ||
| Bads1 |
Amen!!!!! |
