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Htekwo
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 07:56 pm: | 
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Without the ability to test the 'bad gas', it is very difficult to say that it was actually bad gas. I suspect that changing fouled plugs because of an overly rich condition was the cause. I don't know what Buells cold start enrichments are, but I think it was a contributor to the overly rich condition.
Point_doc, I took know disrespect from your comment, I just don't like it when companies take your business for granted. I did have a choice of which Bike to purchase. |
Iamarchangel
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 08:56 pm: |
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Going back to your original post, it doesn't sound like you have an overly rich condition. It sounds like you have a very wet condition as in not enough juice to make a proper spark and the engine gets flooded.
Buell's cold enrichment, the electronic choke circuit, seems pretty good on my bike, but that's all I have to go by. In Canada, we learn these symptoms pretty quickly.
Ride it for a long time, try and avoid short runs in the cold.
Hands off the throttle while starting in cold weather. Expect the bike to start and stumble, don't try to save it. The second start will catch, let it percolate for a minute or so before riding off. |
Htekwo
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 09:53 pm: |
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Unfortunately, it was my wife who tried to start it, so I don't know exactly what she did. She did mention that it started, stumbled then died. I don't know if she tried to say it with the throttle or not. Her second attempt to start it was when it refused. I will chalk it up to a lesson learned, but I'm still pissed about the Bill from the dealer. |
Old_man
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 01:10 am: |
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I suspect that new plugs would have solved your problem.
Bad gas???
Did it run alright on it before you parked it? |
Moosestang
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 09:51 am: |
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You generally aren't going to get 15 gallons of bad gas when filling up your car, so the odds of bad gas causing a car not to start are slim to none. In the Buell I rarely get over 3 gallons, so i could see a gallon worth of watered down gas causing problems.
What octane gas do you use?
Since changing to NGK plugs, I have had to start my bike cold several times and move it at work without letting it warm up. It seems it's always in the way no matter where i chain it. It has always started right back up when I go to leave. |
Htekwo
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 11:35 am: |
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I understand what you are saying, but I still don't buy the Bad Gas scenario. I do believe that the plugs were fouled, now what caused them to be fouled is the mystery. To my knowledge, the bike was running fine until it wasn't....lol. On my own XB, I have had no issues with cold starts other than the oil being a little thick for below 40* weather. Do these bikes need a CDI ignition amp? |
Boltrider
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 01:35 pm: |
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I don't think I've ever had bad gas in my life. I guess it's possible. It also leaves the door open for the dealer to justify a dishonest repair bill. |
Iamarchangel
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 03:45 pm: |
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I wouldn't say dishonest, an hour's labour and plugs takes you pretty close to the bill.
Yes, some mechanics would not have charged and there's a number of reasons for that.
It's a shame that he had to pay but I wouldn't call it dishonest. |
Boltrider
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 05:29 pm: |
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This is an '09 bike we're talking about. It should have been warranted if it wasn't bad gas.
The dealer had my '08 for 3 days and I wasn't charged a dime.
I just have a hard time believing it was bad gas.
(Message edited by boltrider on December 11, 2008) |
Moosestang
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 07:26 pm: |
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I just have a hard time believing it was bad gas
It should have been running rough from the get go. I got bad gas in SC once at a raceway or racetrack. My 93 gsxr-750 ran like crap right after filling up, but it still ran, just coughed and hesitated. |
Htekwo
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 07:45 pm: |
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^^^^Again, that is my point. With bad gas, it should have run rough. |
Iamarchangel
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 10:28 pm: |
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Going with the bad gas theory: if it was water, you might not notice until it had a chance to settle.
If I was a dealer and dealing with a bike that was still under warranty, I would only drain a bit until I got clear gas. Water in gas is obvious.
On second thought, per a previous discussion on how the pump works, it can't be water. It would have to serious sabotage amount of water to affect the engine.
Okay, if it was sediment, and I was looking at a new bike, I would do a complete clean up of the fuel system before I returned the bike. Or I would gather evidence that it was the consumers abuse. Otherwise, I, or Buell, would be liable for any future problem.
Not helping you much here. Your dealer just complicated the issue. All the dealer had to say was, "Hey, you flooded your engine. We allowed it to dry and put new plugs in. It wasn't warranty so pay up (or, it wasn't warranty but we value you as a customer so we covered it this time)"
I'd vote with my feet next time if you have a choice of dealers. Or learn to change your plugs. Or your wife learns... |
Morrbuell
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 02:18 am: |
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BAD GAS IS NOT A MYTHICAL CHARACTER. Have you guys ever seen those takers that fill the underground gas station tanks? This is how it works. stations get a certain amount of water on top of the fuel in the storage tanks underground due to condensation. those tankers come in and dump large quantities of fuel in to the tank stirring up all the good stuff, ie: rust, water, etc, etc, then you roll up to the pump and pump said stirred product in to your temperamental 2cylinder vehicle. bad gas is not a myth, this is why you should always use a reputable station, and higher the octane the better. AND NEVER FILL UP WHEN THEY ARE FILLING THEIR TANKS. another fun fact on fuel is the old leaded fuel you may remember, well lead was used as a bonding agent for fuel, so with out it they had to come up with things like "fuel stabilizer" to give it the same effect. so if you plan on storing your bike over the winter with fuel in it add proper amounts of stabilizer and fill it to the top so you don't get condensation building on top of the fuel rusting your tank. so yes bad gas is possible and if i was the mechanic i would have billed you, but also told you why in a better fashion. sorry. |
Htekwo
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 01:26 pm: |
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^^^I got it. But how do you 'Prove' that the gas was bad or contaminated (would it hold up in court)? I know I'm going over board with a $100 Bill, but it goes back to the question about keeping a happy customer. I fully understand the concept of poor quality fuel. I could certainly have changed the plugs myself, but with the Bike being under warranty, I thought surely it would be covered. I guess I'm a little spoiled by the warranty process in the Auto industry. Not that they're perfect, but they would not have quibled over this one. |
Ourdee
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 01:51 pm: |
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Hind sight is 20/20. So, here is my 13 cents worth; The best thing for the mechanic to have done fuel wise (OSHA permitting) would to have been to drain a quart of fuel into a glass beaker and let it sit for a few minutes. Then call the owner back to look at what he had just got out of the tank. The water would be on the bottom and fuel on the top. This would work if it was H2O in the fuel. The way I test fuel to see if it was bad is to put it in the burn pit out back and throw a match on it. Good gas goes PHUMP! and you can feel it. Bad gas goes hhhf and you can't feel it. For the record a Honda XL500S will run smooth on bad gas/a 1203 Thunderstorm won't. (LEGAL DISCLAIMER: DON"T TEST GAS THIS WAY!) OK, I like fires, and mushroom clouds,..... and shock-waves. Just cause I got old doesn't mean I got smart. |
Iamarchangel
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 04:17 pm: |
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Something to think about.
There was an earlier thread that focussed on how the fuel pump worked. Basically, it would take a serious amount of water or sediment to get past the pump's filters. It's a pretty good design.
An '09 is not going to have accumulated enough muck to have a problem, unless you rode it into the river and pulled it out hours later.
At this point, it is possible that any future engine problem could be refused warranty because, we now know, that bad gas got into the engine. That is why the auto industry would never tell you that it was bad gas without actually testing it and showing you. There's a future liability issue.
I'd be uncomfortable with that on my bike's record.
Something to think about. |
Smiley1eye
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 04:40 pm: |
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OK, I like fires, and mushroom clouds,..... and shock-waves. Just cause I got old doesn't mean I got smart.
 } |
Xgengirl
| | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2009 - 06:44 pm: |
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The bike Htekwo is talking about is mine. The bike was ridden fine several times after filling it up. Just one day it wouldnt start and when it did it did alot of backfire. After we got the bike back from the dealer, Eric rode it back and stated it was still running rough. I am still having the same problem. I went to take it out a day or two after it came home and did the same thing. I will tell you that It started up the first try and popped quite a bit and I tried to keep it going by using the throttle, this continued for several seconds and lots of grey smoke before I let off the throttle and the bike died. It will not turn over at all now. |
Dgrobels
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2009 - 03:36 pm: |
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vapor lock? pull a plug,I would 1st hook up a battery charger first and see if it'll turn over
if it doesn't turn over with a charged connected to it, take it back to the dealer or a different dealer |
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