| Author | Message | ||
     Moosestang |
First question. When you turn the rear wheel with timing plug removed, should you be hearing the sound of air escaping? Second question. I tried following the directions in ecmspy, but I don't see any timing marks. I'm not sure if that piece of metal in there is even turning when i turn the wheel. | ||
| Moosestang |
I found the mark, but still don't get it. Mine is severely retarded if I follow the ecmspy directions. It is on the far left when the screen just switches to 5. I'm getting a nice puff of air, that smells of gas, out the inspection hole, is that normal or do I have a problem? | ||
| Moosestang |
If the mark is on the left side does that mean it's advanced or retarded? I think I may have it backwards. | ||
| Moosestang |
Never mind, they both say to the left is advanced. I drilled the rivets and got it set correctly. Has no one on here ever checked their static timing or is everyone taking a day off today? | ||
| Froggy |
/insert retarded remark here I helped someone check it at March Badness, but to be honest I don't remember how to do it. Involved rolling the wheel while the bike was propped up on a log. | ||
| Moosestang |
I got the timing figured out. Mine was advanced so I drilled out the rivets and turned the timing disk counter clockwise until it was dead center when the 0 changes to 5 in ecmspy. I'm not sure if I have a compression problem though. | ||
| New12r |
There is pressure in the crank case, that is why there are vents at the top. I would not worry much. | ||
| Glitch |
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show .cgi?tpc=32777&post=693815#POST693815 | ||
| Moosestang |
There is pressure in the crank case, that is why there are vents at the top. I would not worry much. I know there is blow by and the pistons moving create pressure in the crankcase, but knowing it and hearing it is a big difference and it's a little unnerving.  I wanted to check the timing before data logging and adjusting the fuel maps, plus I was getting a little pinging. Mine was definitely advanced and adjusting it was pretty simple once I figured out where the timing mark was at. (Message edited by moosestang on November 09, 2008) | ||
| Jos51700 |
I'm betting that you have retimed it to the wrong cylinder. Did you verify Top Dead Center for the front cylinder? Your bike would run VERY poorly, if it was actually that far off! A puff of air and oil/fuel smell is normal. It's blowby from the pistons. | ||
| Skinstains |
Yes, front cylinder TDC. Also the pistons compress air into the combustion chamber on their up stroke. They do the opposite on the down stroke. The compression rings don't much care wich direction they're going. | ||
| Moosestang |
I'm betting that you have retimed it to the wrong cylinder. Did you verify Top Dead Center for the front cylinder? Your bike would run VERY poorly, if it was actually that far off! I verified top dead center the way the ecmspy tuning guide tells you to. You look at the cam positioning sensor signal in the diagnostics tab. I'm pretty sure I got it set right and it was advanced the way it was initially. It was probably that way from the factory or a previous owner advanced it and actually replaced the rivets, which i doubt. I started the bike up and let it idle. it was hard to start, but I get that every time the fuel pump cycles a few times or I change the maps. It idled better than before though. Before checking the static timing, I had added 5 degrees of timing to the idle zones via ecmpsy and the bike was hard to crank. I don't mean it would crank and crank, but not start. I mean it would slowly turn one time and then fire up. Now it cranks much easier, probably because it only has 5 degrees at idle instead of whatever the static timing advance put it at. Is there anyway to disable the fuel pump when checking the static timing or using ecmpsy. I hate having to cycle the pump just to change the tune and of course it was cycling every time I passed TDC, which was probably 10 times.  For those that haven't read the ecmspy tuning guide on how to check the static timing. You basically raise the rear tire, put trans in 5th gear. Remove inspection plug in between the cylinders. The guide tells you to turn the wheel until 0 is displayed for the cam sensor, but I would just slowly turn the wheel until you find the timing mark first. It's not as easy to see as you would think. Then back the wheel up until the mark is all the way to the left of the window. Now slowly and I mean slowly turn the wheel forward while watching the cam sensor display in ecmspy. It should have been at zero and will change to 5 before the mark leaves the window. The fuel pump will cycle every time a cylinder is ready to fire. Mine changed almost instantly upon turning the tire forward, but I only had to turn the timing plate a tiny bit to get the timing mark to dead center. (Message edited by moosestang on November 09, 2008) (Message edited by moosestang on November 09, 2008) (Message edited by moosestang on November 09, 2008) | ||
| Iamarchangel |
You might want to check that. You've written "eventually" and it seems to require more precision than that. Also the voltage change should happen at centre, not at the edge. The '05 R manual states: 8. If the engine is coming up on the compression stroke for the FRONT (correct) cylinder, the screen will be displaying LOW - 0 volts with timing mark at left edge of window. 9. Gently bump flywheel forward in tiny increments. 10. See Figure 1-48. If the static timing is correct, the screen will switch to HIGH - 5 volts at the precise moment the timing mark exactly centers in the inspection window. So, Jos, is there going to be a difference between models and years? (Cause I'd go with the service manual.) | ||
| Moosestang |
You might want to check that. You've written "eventually" and it seems to require more precision than that. Also the voltage change should happen at centre, not at the edge. The '05 R manual states: Have you checked the static timing before? If it changes to 5 with the timing mark dead center then your timing is neither advanced or retarded, this is after you have the mark to the far left and showing a 0 voltage. If it is to the left of center then it's advanced, to the right and it's retarded. I'll take advise from people that have performed this, but I can read and comprehend the manuals, somewhat. I think you've read to much into the word eventually, so i changed it. (Message edited by moosestang on November 09, 2008) | ||
| Iamarchangel |
Please don't get ticked off with me, I haven't done this kind of timing since we had to fight off T. Rex to do it. However, I have a life philosophy that says experience is not the best teacher, somebody else's experience is better. Experience can hurt or cost, better to learn that from somebody else. Every time, I read a problem I apply my own skills and try to learn. When I read confusion and hear wisdom I double-check the manual. You wrote: It is on the far left when the screen just switches to 5. Jos wrote that you may have set it to the rear cylinder. Jos is pretty good so let's see what the manual says: 11. If engine is coming up on the compression stroke for the REAR (incorrect) cylinder, the screen will be displaying HIGH - 5 volts as timing mark is just coming into view at left edge of window and will switch to LOW - 0 volts at same point as the timing mark continues through the window. (If this is observed, turn flywheel forward one revolution to bring engine to compression stroke for front cylinder.) I've learned a couple of lessons today, thank you. | ||
| Moosestang |
I will take that as a no you haven't. I stated the timing mark is visible at the far left when the 0 volts is display. I turned the wheel forward numerous times and at no other time did the timing mark show up with a 0 displayed. In your quote it says it will change to 0 at same point as the timing mark continues through the window. I'm not sure what they mean by same point, but it stayed at 5 until the timing mark was completely gone, way gone. Therefore there is no way I could have set it for the rear cylinder based on the manual instructions. Now Jos, do you still think I set it for the rear cylinder? Also the voltage change should happen at centre, not at the edge. It is this statement above that prompted me to ask if you had ever checked the timing. It should happen at the center if it's correct, which mine wasn't. If anyone else thinks I did it wrong, please speak up. If you have a different interpretation of the manual, i'd like to hear it as well. (Message edited by moosestang on November 09, 2008) (Message edited by moosestang on November 09, 2008) | ||
| Moosestang |
11. If engine is coming up on the compression stroke for the REAR (incorrect) cylinder, the screen will be displaying HIGH - 5 volts as timing mark is just coming into view at left edge of window and will switch to LOW - 0 volts at same point as the timing mark continues through the window. (If this is observed, turn flywheel forward one revolution to bring engine to compression stroke for front cylinder.) at SOME point. That must be a typo and if so, then at no point did it switch back to 0. Wouldn't you know at idle if you set the timing for the rear cylinder? Doesn't that make the ecm fire the front cylinder when it's all the way down?} | ||
| Iamarchangel |
I said I hadn't so, yes, you may take it as that. These are not my quotes, they (red part) are cut and paste from the manual. I'm as interested in the answers as you are except that, of course, it's not my engine under discussion. I cut and pasted your statement (blue part) re: 5 at left is from your second post on this thread. (It's also on your third post.) You do realize that, with a four stroke, the TDC marker will show up twice? It's not clear from your statement above whether you saw a second position or it didn't give the appropriate readings in the second position. Anyway, good night and good luck. | ||
| Iamarchangel |
Section 4 -31 deals with Cam Position Sensor and Rotor. It's late for me but I would guess that understanding how the trigger rotor works would probably answer your questions about how the ECM knows when to fire. Not that I understand it either but that's what I'd be looking at. Anyway, this time it is good night. | ||
| Skinstains |
You guys really confused the sshhiitt out of me, maybe it's too late for me. I do know that on a common crank pin motor the pistons will never be one up and one down. Unless it's a boxer. Pull the plugs and stick a drinking straw or similar in the plug hole and rotate the motor to find where the mark is when the front is at TDC. I have zero experience with the spy thingy so I will sign off here, but if you need help setting points look me up. | ||
| Punkid8888 |
+1 skinstain, feel the piston move up with an object to verify TDC. I do it all the time when checking timing marks on a cars dampener. I plan on checking the timing this winter and will be using a combination of these techniques for redundancy | ||
| Moosestang |
I will pull the front plug and do the drinking straw method. | ||
| Iamarchangel |
Skinstains I think some other twins are up/down, 180 degrees apart, but not Vs. What I meant was that the TDC mark, on the flywheel, will show up twice per power cycle (compression and exhaust strokes) of the reference cylinder, in this case, the front. The rear cylinder is not going to fire at the front's BDC. Yeah, points I can do, this I'll learn from the manual and online forums. Oh, and yeah, a straw for TDC. I remember using a pen and, you guessed it, trying to fish out broken bits of plastic later. | ||
| Jos51700 |
The JOS way: I pull the rear spark plug (Since I'm usually replacing them when I set timing, which is at every service) and then finding TDC/front is pretty easy. It's the one where the motor doesn't want to roll over. OR, you can pull the front plug, and put your finger over the hole to feel the compression stroke. Requires a bit more acrobatics. I have used the manual (and the procedure hasn't changed that I'm aware of, since the dawn of Buell EFI), and I always check the proper manual to observe the voltage flip-flop, in the proper direction, after I find TDC with my speedi-method. I don't usually memorize things like which way it flops, I just look it up. It's one of those things that has screwed with me more than once, too, and if you get your bike serviced at 10,000 miles, and they don't charge you for rivets, ask why. Most shops won't do it. I've found that the flip-flop occurs close enough for the rear cylinder that it looks like it's way out of time, sometimes advanced, sometimes retarded. (I'm betting it's XB9 vs XB12, but I've never remembered to check). Clear over to the left is pretty far over, but certainly possible. One of the issues discussed recently on the Old School board is how much wear actually does occur in the cam gear-train. Buell says they don't wear/change much, but I've watched some of them change a few degrees every 5000 miles, to the point that the rider says "It runs better" after I change the timing, at every service. Also, you need to check where it changes when the flywheel is in motion. Making small changes in the flywheel position isn't super accurate. If you can roll the motor over smoothly (Not easy, I know), and see where it changes, you'll be more accurate than just bumping it. And I always mark the timing plate before I start, so I can go home agian. If you didn't mark it, you can sometimes see the hold-down stud marks. I'm not saying you did this wrong, and it certainly sounds like you did your homework. Trusting the manual more than me is a good thing! It just sounded unusual, is all. Timing on these very important, because you're not timing the ignition (well, you are, but you can change that with ECMspy), but you are timing the injectors, and on a common short-runner manifold engine, that's very important. | ||
| Jos51700 |
on a common crank pin motor the pistons will never be one up and one down It does happen, briefly, near TDC, on an HD motor. You need to realize when sticking things down the spark plug hole, that service manual TDC refers to TDC in between the compression, and power stroke (at TDC ignition, not TDC overlap). Top Dead Center overlap will show the timing mark that can screw you up, too. You can use a mirror to look in the spark plug hole, and see if there are any valves open. TDC ignition shows no valves. | ||
| Swordsman |
I remember it was a buggar to do if you're a Buell timing vigin, like I was. Took awhile for me to understand what I was seeing, despite the manual instructions and ECMSpy. Good luck! ~SM | ||
| Dlwilson |
Also remember to put the timing plug back in before you start the engine, or it gets really messy. | ||
| Reepicheep |
+1 for Glitch's link... http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show .cgi?tpc=32777&post=693815#POST693815 I used almost that procedure exactly... with some simplifying steps (all from memory, but whatever I did worked great)... 1) I did not pull either spark plug. It makes it harder to turn the wheel in 5th gear, but not impossible. Just annoying. 2) I did hear the hiss both directions. I had to turn the wheel slowly to let the pressure bleed out of the cylinder. If I went slow enough, it would turn with a reasonable level of effort. 3) The bike was stabilized on a piece of rebar through the rear axle supported by jackstands. 4) I found front TDC by knowing that the bike was running, so the timing can't be *that* far off already. Choose the "fuel pump is whining" that is closest to the current timing mark. 5) I used the "fuel pump cycles" instead of rigging up the LED, using ECM spy, or pulling any plugs. It would have been a lot easier with two people, thats for sure. And its a fussy and fuzzy little process... you don't move that cup far to make a big change in the timing... | ||
| Glitch |
you don't move that cup far to make a big change in the timing... Quoted for truth | ||
| Moosestang |
you don't move that cup far to make a big change in the timing... Quoted for truth You are not kidding! Update! I didn't have time to check TDC of the front cylinder, but I figured that the most I did was retard the timing, so i road the bike to work. The bike ran so much better, it was a night and day difference to what I'm used to. More power everywhere, smoother, feels like I picked up 20hp. So Jos was right. The bike did run like crap! I just didn't know what crap felt like and since this is my first buell, I thought that was just the way it ran. My only regret is I didn't check the static timing sooner. For those interested in checking your timing. You need a 3/8 inch hex socket and an extension. The torque for the plug is 10-15 ft lbs, so don't over tighten it. |
