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Blake
| | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 10:40 pm: | 
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Barnes is a competitive rider.
Like I said Jose, the top Buells, the ones with fairings, didn't make the race. The ones that did were naked.
As you may not know, qualifying times at Daytona are very much contingent on getting a good tow down each of the long straights and off of the banking.
Are you contending that the F2 was using a stock fairing?
Consider Superbike... V-twin versus IL4 of same displacement... apples versus oranges, which is why the twins are given advantages in other areas to help make them competitive.
The FX class has little to do with stock street bikes, though I know that you have a fantasy that it does.
Top speed and aerodynamics rule at Daytona. Tires affect lap times too.. Here's a quote for you...
quote:“There’s just a lot of grip. The thing that hit me straight away was the mid-corner speed. It feels like you’re riding in a rut on a dirt bike. I can’t wait to get to some real racetracks with some curves.”
That was from Eric Bostrom speaking on his Ducati-Autin/Michelin tire testing at Daytona a week or so ago. Eric took the Ducati 999 Superbike with Michelin slicks into the 1:48's.
Monday afternoon lap times from Daytona/Dunlop tire testing (as provided by AMA Pro Racing Timing & Scoring):
| Rider | Bike/Class | Best Lap Time | | | | 1. Ben Bostrom | Honda CBR1000RR Superbike | 1:48.981 | | 2. Mat Mladin | Suzuki GSX-R1000 Superbike | 1:49.438 | | 3. Jamie Hacking | Yamaha YZF-R1 Superstock | 1:49.552 | | 4. Jason DiSalvo | Yamaha YZF-R1 Superstock | 1:49.853 | | 5. Aaron Yates | Suzuki GSX-R1000 Superbike | 1:49.877 | | 6. Jake Zemke | Honda CBR1000RR Superbike | 1:50.047 | | 7. Josh Hayes | Kawasaki ZX-10R Superstock | 1:51.143 | | 8. Damon Buckmaster | Yamaha YZF-R1 Superstock | 1:51.472 | | 9. Tommy Hayden | Kawasaki ZX-10R Superstock | 1:51.592 | | 10. Roger Lee Hayden | Kawasaki ZX-10R Superstock | 1:52.063 | | 11. Aaron Gobert | Yamaha YZF-R1 Superstock | 1:52.517 | | 12. Jamie Hacking | Yamaha YZF-R6 Supersport | 1:53.105 | | 13. Aaron Gobert | Yamaha YZF-R6 Supersport | 1:53.109 | | 14. Jason DiSalvo | Yamaha YZF-R6 Supersport | 1:53.246 | | 15. Damon Buckmaster | Yamaha YZF-R6 Supersport | 1:53.783 | | 16. Tommy Hayden | Kawasaki ZX-6RR Supersport | 1:53.786 | | 17. Jake Zemke | Honda CBR600RR Supersport | 1:54.469 | | 18. Aaron Yates | Suzuki GSX-R600 Supersport | 1:55.323 | | 19. Alex Gobert | Honda CBR600RR Formula Xtreme | 1:55.397 | | 20. Jake Zemke | Honda CBR600RR Formula Xtreme | 1:55.5* | | 21. Alex Gobert | Honda CBR600RR Supersport | 1:56.04* | | 22. Tony Meiring | Kawasaki ZX-6RR Supersport | 1:56.085 |
* times provided by team
Where among the Supersport and FX machines above would the top Buell fall? Competitive? Absolutely. Against Miguel and HRC? That will be a tough group to beat.
I'm still waiting to hear anything definitive about teams fielding a Buell or Ducati in FX.
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José_quiñones
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 05:56 pm: |
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quote:Are you contending that the F2 was using a stock fairing?
Looks like a race version of the stock fairing to me.
Blake, it's real simple, it wasn't the fairing or the tires or the horsepower, it was the rider, Michael Barnes, who also qualified on the Buell Lightning pole the year before at Daytona on the Kosco X1 against basically the same group of riders.
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José_quiñones
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 06:00 pm: |
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quote:The FX class has little to do with stock street bikes, though I know that you have a fantasy that it does.
No that would be Supersport and Superstock, which are closer to box stock rules than any other National racing series.
This year FX is anything goes, as long as you race an aircooled bike, the rest of them have Superbike type restrictions.
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José_quiñones
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 06:10 pm: |
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quote:Like I said Jose, the top Buells, the ones with fairings, didn't make the race. The ones that did were naked.
Not true, Bryan Bemisderfer (98, Harding HD) and Dan Bilanski (#12, Hal's HD)raced their ram air fully faired bikes. Bryan missed a shift and crashed while battling with Dan for second, Dan did end up finishing second, 24 seconds behind Michael Barnes. |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 06:56 pm: |
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Somewhere I swear I've seen a picture of the leaders towards the beginning of the race. I thought for sure all the Buells in the photo were unfaired.
Certainly without his competitive skill, Michael Barnes would not have faired so well. Certainly without an aerodynamic machine he would not have faired so well either. He ran a great race and absolutely deserved to win. All I'm saying is that Michael's fiercest competition did not start the race, and that if they had, the outcome could have well been different. Michael Barnes ain't got nothing on Mike Cicotto that I can see.
Race version of a stock fairing? So would that be stock or not? 
Anyway, I see Guzzi is doing some testing to see if they have a machine that might be competitive in FX. I'm really disappointed that HRC decided to bully in on FX instead of staying in SS. They aren't about to be upstaged by non-Japanese competition it seems. The whole thing stinks to me. |
Wyckedflesh
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 07:39 pm: |
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But see, that is why the run the races. If it could be predicted on paper then they wouldn't run them |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 07:01 am: |
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quote:All I'm saying is that Michael's fiercest competition did not start the race, and that if they had, the outcome could have well been different.
By that same logic, nobody would have heard of Eric WO\Ood winning Loudon in 2002 on his XB if Scott Greenwood had not crashed while leading on the last lap, but you never mention that....
quote:Race version of a stock fairing? So would that be stock or not?
You're not that dumb, you know full well it's a fiberglass cosmetic duplicate of the stock CBR600F2 fairing, so the aerodynamics would be the same as stock fairing that came with the bike back in 1992.
The Buell fairing is the race version of what stock fairing?
Oh so now HRC is a bully, eh, WHY NOT LET THEM RACE? |
Turnagain
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 09:00 am: |
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quote:The Buell fairing is the race version of what stock fairing?
i know, i know -- xb9r.
now if you don't quit pokin' him in the eye, he's gonna come up here and kick your arse.
all in fun there Sunshine 
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Jmartz
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 01:05 pm: |
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The story has not changed.
HD: Long stroke, heavy internals provide and instant release of stored energy but dies soon after that because a lot of the energy in the fuel has to be used to spin the heavier reciprocating assembly.
Jap: Short stroke, low torque, starts slowly but then explodes with power. In addition the "counterweight" (the central two pistons) makes power and that helps a lot.
For those of us who navigate the freeways mostly, an in-line 4 is a better weapon. In the mountains on sharp curves the HD has the edge. The moment the road opens up or the curves become more sweepy that V-twin power will buy you the spot in the rear.
I can't stress enough how weak the engine in my R1 is. It stores so little energy that if the throttle is closed or drastically reduced the effect is not unlike applying the brakes. When it is spinning, however, it can accelerate (increase in rpm) quite impressively. |
Boulderbiker
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 01:20 pm: |
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be careful with that "low torque" comment on the jap bikes, Dyna might jump all over that |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 05:04 pm: |
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He always did torque a lot 
Rocket  |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 07:23 pm: |
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JQ,
HRC is allowed to race. Ain't that great? I'm not faulting AMAPR, I'm calling it as I see it. HRC is mounting a full blown factory effort to score a relatively easy victory in a newly formed class against privateers and semi-factory supported teams rather than go head to head against the other top factories in SS. Just calling it as I see it. The rules are fine at this point as far as I can see.
The Buell race fairing is not stock. None of the fairings in AMA racing are stock. If you want to race, you have to buy or build a racing fairing or go without, and then you still need to buy or build a belly pan capable of holding the full contents of the crankcase/oil reservoir, radiator, and tranny, as applicable. They ain't street bikes. They are racing machines. Racing fairings typically weigh significantly less than stock fairings and often offer improved aerodynamics and ergonomic fit specifically for racing.
You don't seem to complain about the SV650's with their racing fairings that bear no resemblance to their stock counterparts. Why is that?
Oh, I remember, you wanted to mount a racing belly pan to your S3 just cause you thought it would look neat, but Buell racing told you no dice unless you could provide a racing license. You got upset about that and have ever since embarked on a tirade about manufacturers "selling what they race."
Is that about right?
Yep, if the FUSA Sportbike racer at Loudon, who was leading the race hadn't crashed out on the last lap, he would have won, and Eric Wood would have come in 2nd. That still would have been a very significant achievement for Eric Wood and the Kosko team and for Buell. Either way, win or 2nd place, it clearly proved the XB9R in its debut race a very capable and competitive racing machine on a twisty technical track.
Now contrarily, some here are offering that the FUSA Thunderbike win by Michael Barnes on a Honda CBR600F2 racing machine at Daytona this past October against a severely depleted field of Buells as an indictment against the capablility of the machine. That logic is false. That is all I'm trying to say. Just calling it like I see it. |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2003 - 07:05 am: |
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Is that about right?
Hardly
Suzuki does not pretend or market their SV650 as a race bike, they will gladly sell you a GSXR for that. Buell likes to blur that distinction (born on the track, built for the street, etc)
Race fairings, as specified in the RULES, have to be cosmetic duplicates of the stock fairing.
The Buell race fairing is a cosmetic duplicate of nothing, because the street bike does not have the fairing.
Simple concept, but your Buell Pro Series Blinders don't let you see that, I think anyone here reading this sees this as plain as day.
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José_quiñones
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2003 - 07:06 am: |
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And even if the CBR600F2 fairing was different aerodynamically, it was not the reason the bike won. It was the rider. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2003 - 07:31 pm: |
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I don't know whether or not aerodynamics was a governing factor in Michael's victory; neither do you. I can say conclusively that without the fairing at Daytona Michael would have had a much tougher time of it. He would have gone significantly less quickly down the straights. It's simple physics. Certainly Michael's skill was critical towards achieving his victory. I've not argued against that.
Rather, (and I'm saying this now for the second time) I've refuted the bullshit implied here by some that since a CBR600F2 racing machine won the Thunderbike race at Daytona this past October, Buells are thus proved inferior. That kind of thinking is simply bullshit. I cannot imagine that you would disagree with me on that. So, case closed.
I've not claimed that the SV650 is a racing machine. I merely called you on your double standard and bias against Buells in racing. But since you mention it, as far as I can see, the SV is raced as much or more than any other bike in existence. And often it is covered in a full blown racing fairing. Suzuki doesn't promote the SV650 as a race bike? Funny how they have a hotly contested money-paying class in their Suzuki cup for a machine they don't promote as a racing machine. Funny how thousands of SV650s are dominating all the lightweight classes in club racing accross the country. But no, It ain't offered as a racing machine. Please, get real here. That said, the XB9R is a hell of a lot closer in stock form to a racing machine than any stock SV650.
I don't have blinders on. I call it like I see it.
I think it is great that FUSA allows all manner of machines to race in a number of different performance classes. Classes based upon a machine's relative performance, not just it's engine size.
I applaude AMAPR for doing likewise in FX and SBK. I boo AMAPR for not doing likewise in SS.
I really like Miguel, but I hope HRC falls flat on their face in the 2004 FX competition. I'll be routing for the underdogs on the Ducati's, Guzzis, and Buells, if they are able to make a showing this coming year.
Who know's, maybe we'll see Mr. Higbee back on a Buell this coming year. He certainly proved himself once again, to be a professional racer of very high caliber. |
Joojoo
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2003 - 07:33 pm: |
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Nicely done Blake....The XB9R is a sweet track tool.
Jack |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2003 - 07:37 pm: |
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None of the rules I've seen require a "cosmetic duplicate" fairing. |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2003 - 09:22 pm: |
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Which proves that you have never read through the FUSA or AMA rulebook.
From the FUSA rulebook, Sportbike Class (where Buells currently race with full fairings and ram air tubes)
quote:6.11.6 Aftermarket bodywork and fairing mounts may be used, but must be same size and dimensions as the original equipment and must match the shape of the OEM machine in silhouette, except where modifications are necessary to meet Section 5.2.23 of the rules.
The Buell race fairing does not match the size dimensions or silhouette of the OEM machine. FUSA lets them get away with it, probably "for the spirit of competition".
From the AMA Supersport section of the rulebook (where you would like them to race)
quote:(h) Fairing and bodywork (not including fuel tank) may be replaced with cosmetic duplicates of the original parts.
(1) Size and dimensions must be the same as the original parts.
(2) Construction must be of plastic or fiberglass (no carbon or carbon composite fiber).
(3) Original combination instrument/ fairing brackets may be replaced with aftermarket brackets of the same basic material. All other fairing brackets must be original stock parts.
(4) Should the stock fairing include air- ducting tubes, those tubes may be removed. However, if used, the tubes must be original stock parts.
The carbon fiber ram air fairing currently used on the Buell racers would be illegal for AMA Supersport under the current rules.
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José_quiñones
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2003 - 09:45 pm: |
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quote:That said, the XB9R is a hell of a lot closer in stock form to a racing machine than any stock SV650.
Which is why there are so many more racing SV650's out there than Buells.
The SV650 cup, did they announce they had a SV650 class right when the bikes hit the street first or did Suzuki notice that a bunch of people were buying and racing SV650 streetbikes and then decide to add a class at the next Suzuki Cup?
edited by josé_quiñones on December 11, 2003 |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2003 - 10:59 pm: |
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JQ,
I'm still looking for that "cosmetic duplicate" requirement. |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2003 - 11:21 pm: |
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I'm still looking for that "cosmetic duplicate" requirement.
Race fairings, as specified in the RULES, have to be cosmetic duplicates of the stock fairing.
Getting into semantics now The rules dont actually state that you "MUST" have a cosmetic duplicate fairing. You can run the "stock" fairing, but if replaced must be the same shape & size as stock.
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Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2003 - 11:24 pm: |
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I have NO clue what your point is wrt quantity of XB9R racing machines. I didn't realize quantity was a prerequisite to superior quality or class distinction. Not to mention the SV has been around since '99 with the XBs following four years later. Really, except for the Canadian Thunder series, 2003 was the first full season the XB9R was available for racing.
Did Suzuki announce the Suzuki cup the first year the GSXR600 was released? What kind of logic are you grasping at? I think you like to argue more than I do. That's friggin scary.
Thanks Joojoo dude.  |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2003 - 11:32 pm: |
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Dyna,
Actually, you can't really run the stock fairing. Stock fairings do not have enclosed belly pans. You could possibly run the stock uppers, but then you'd need to remove the lenses and cover the holes or tape over the lenses. |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2003 - 11:36 pm: |
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Belly pan is ez enough to make & attach to a stock fairing on a 600 sportbike. I could see the hassle with covering up the holes for the headlight, turnsignals, etc. Easier to just get a set of sharkskinz. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2003 - 11:38 pm: |
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BTW, the part that says "must match the shape of the OEM machine" means that the fairing cannot extend significantly beyond the physical envelope defined by the motorcycle itself, like for a partially streamlined rig with a big tail and protruding front fender; that would be illegal. The rule there is addressing the geometric extents of the naked motorcycle, not of the stock fairing. Even a stock fairing that extended significantly beyond the naked "machine" would not be permitted. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2003 - 11:41 pm: |
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Yeah, the aftermarket fairings are usually way lighter too. The belly pan must also be watertight and hold the entire fluid contents of the engine/tranny/cooling system. It also needs to be easily removable to facilitate tech inspection and must be securely mounted. |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 07:08 am: |
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quote:I'm still looking for that "cosmetic duplicate" requirement.
Which proves you don't read what I quoted and it is pointless to debate, but I'll repost it so you can read it:
FUSA:
quote:6.11.6 Aftermarket bodywork and fairing mounts may be used, but must be same size and dimensions as the original equipment and must match the shape of the OEM machine in silhouette, except where modifications are necessary to meet Section 5.2.23 of the rules.
AMA:
quote:h) Fairing and bodywork (not including fuel tank) may be replaced with cosmetic duplicates of the original parts.
(1) Size and dimensions must be the same as the original parts.
(2) Construction must be of plastic or fiberglass (no carbon or carbon composite fiber).
(3) Original combination instrument/ fairing brackets may be replaced with aftermarket brackets of the same basic material. All other fairing brackets must be original stock parts.
(4) Should the stock fairing include air- ducting tubes, those tubes may be removed. However, if used, the tubes must be original stock parts.
Bye |
Davefl
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 07:55 am: |
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Maybe I am wrong. But I thought this tread was about Buell numbers from the mag Sportrider. Not about racing class rules. I believe I saw a tread about that. |
Turnagain
| | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 09:42 am: |
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quote:But I thought this thread was about Buell numbers from the mag Sportrider.
Saloon brawls often spill out into the street. 
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