| Author | Message | ||
     Fullpower |
Hey it would be cool if some real smart engineer type could find a cheap way for us regular mortals could set/zero the tps on these XB's. there must be a way to inform the ECM that the throttle is now closed, and should be referanced as such. i am guessing that pin 3 on the data link connector is where this signal is input, but how does one create this closed throttle-zero command? any one with the skinny please help. thanks dean | ||
| Stot |
Well you would need 3 things. A Scanalyser, A PC and a serial cable with thruput to 'log' the session. Then you get your nice man to do a by the book TPS zero and have your PC log the communication between scanalyser and ECU. Then you gotta figure out what the binary pattern means ,in out, wait times etc THEN you can send the right binary pattern direct from your PC or a well programed PIC chip in a black box. This of course assumes there isnt any encryption between the ECU and Scanalyser, can be bypassed but you gotta find a hell of a programmer. I would assume not and that the signals are the same each time. Something Ive had a hankering to do too but can you find someone to let you plug a cable into their $3000 Scanalyser??!  Mind you if you could build a box that done a TPS at the push of a button @ $40 I think it would be a seller..... Cya Stot edited by Stot on November 12, 2003 | ||
| Blackhat |
Uhhhh..... What? You know, I just recently took a calculus course, got a D+. My instructor taught me about Logarythms and Polynomials. I asked her Loga what?..... Poly who? ..... Knowledge is everything. Wish I knew what the hell you were talking about. This is a complement. Blackhat | ||
| Kaese |
I just got back from the dealer and they said I needed to make an appointment (3 weeks) for a TPS 0 adjustment. I was not real happy. It is a 15 minute job at the most and they said they charge for ½ hour labor. I have seen it done. Ensure the bike is warmed up and reset the dumb thing with their Scanalyser. I will check with other dealers. | ||
| M1combat |
I fail to see why you would need to know what the sting means as such... Why couldn't you just record and repeat. I suppose it would rely on making a "good" recording as opposed to just writing down the bits in each packet. Unless of course if it needs to be interactive. Maybe it would be best to record three or more resets and check for differences. Maybe even a few from a few different sleds. Very doable IMO. This scanalyzer thing... does it conform to standards? 9pin serial or something? Is there a way we can find out if there's a difference in pin-out on it? The only reason I ask is that if a person were to write a program that records data from a port and was expecting the port to be a standard pin-out and then actually runs it out to the ECM through a standard port who knows what it might tell it... In a tech-geek sort of way it would be fun to just let her rip and see what happens but... As you can tell I'm more of a hardware guy (much more complex and that's why I like it) but give me fifteen minutes with a programming manual in Pascal/Delphi to bring back the old days and I'll have the software for you too... BTW, I've come to the conclusion that CPU's/IC's run on smoke. If you let the smoke out they stop working  . | ||
| Opto |
The way I understand it is that the download/upload connector has 4 pins, supply voltage, ground, data in and data out, I presume this is straight serial data that can be read by any computer that has the program to initiate and interpret the incoming data. To zero the tps (as I understand at this stage) the voltage from the tps is read through the ecm into the outboard computer and then this value is downloaded back into the ecm so it knows where to start from. There is more to it than this with the AFV (air-fuel value) which is another factor besides just the tps. When reading this post, do NOT take this as fact, it is simply what I think is going on, derived from scattered snippets of info and the FM. Building an interface is not difficult, but obtaining a program (and the computer/ecm language) and the knowledge to use it properly may turn out to be extremely difficult, illegal, or somehow otherwise near impossible. On the other hand it could be relatively easy. I am very interested in this out of curiousity, in the meantime I'll pay for services by qualified people with the right gear. | ||
| Stot |
You need to figure out the pattern coz some of it will be scanner - ECM and some would be ECM - Scanner , dont wanna send the ECM an ECM out signal. The program would need to know what signal to wait for before sending the next one. With a morning on a scanalyser I think it would be possible to figure out the stream. Dunno why but I think the connector would have just 1 line that is I/O. Cya Stot | ||
| Bigdaddy |
DAQ would be the first need - there's literally 100's of DAQ providers so reinventing that particular wheel is nonsensical. The Scanalyzer would be the second need. A lawyer would probably be your third need. Some folks/companies get a bit touchy when you reverse engineer (a public forum and for profit hurts the cause substantially) a proprietary item. Lurkers, No Phreaking on my end -- promise. Greg | ||
| Stot |
Would be cool if Buell actually just built the black box TPS reset for us and sell it themselves. Cya Stot | ||
| Glitch |
01001001011101000010000001110011011010000110111101110101011011000110010001101110 00100111011101000010000001100010011001010010000001110100011011110110111100100000 01101000011000010111001001100100001011100000110100001010010000010110011001110100 01100101011100100010000001100001011011000110110000100000011010010111010000100000 01100001011011000110110000100000011011110110111001100101011100110010000001100001 011011100110010000100000011110100110010101110010011011110111001100101110 | ||
| Bigdaddy |
7 Unit EBDIC randomized with a non-recursing R89 LRS, but I can't find my graph paper :-) | ||
| Mikej |
Kaese, First thing I'd do if I were you would be to track down the owner of that dealership and ask him/her/it why you need to wait 3 weeks to get something done that takes less time to do than you took waiting to talk to him. If he does not give you a satisfactory answer then say goodbye and that you'll stop referring customers to his dealership. You're goal is to improve their customer service, you're only other option is to seek service elsewhere, inform him/her/it of this and then decide. The D-Factor is perhaps the biggest single issue that affects more Buell owners and potential customers than perhaps any other factor. "D" stands for Dealership, or dickhead if they fit that profile better. ===== The scanalizer issue is perhaps the biggest issue affecting potential sales to carb'd bike owners, call it the S-Factor. The S-Factor virtually ensures that you are required to seek out at least some minimal level of service via a D-factor. The S-Factor has affected some owners so much that they have converted f.i. bikes to carbs. Very few have converted a carb'd bike to f.i. unless it was an f.i. system that they could calibrate at home or a more ameniable (sp?) shop. The "S" in S-Factor can stand for Scanilizer, or it can stand for Service, or it can stand for BullManeur, or it can stand for all three. Regardless of how you define it the S-Factor rarely smells sweet. ===== Next time you go to a dealership to make a service appointment seek first the owner and present him/her/it with a small carton of milk, a freshly made sandwich wrapped in a clear zip-lock baggie, and a fresh banana. Ask the owner to place these three items on a bookshelf in his office and do not refrigerate them. Tell the owner that you will retrieve the three items as soon as your bike's service is completed. Tell the owner that this is a customer shelf life factor, CSL-Factor, and much like the milk the banana and the sandwich, the longer it takes to get your bike in for service and the longer it takes to complete that service will usually mean the the milk will sour the banana will turn black and mushy and moldy and the sandwich will turn green and moldy. Tell the owner you will return to retrieve the items when your bike is completed and that you demand he leave them on his bookshelf as a daily reminder that you the customer are still waiting for the service you are paying for to be completed. In less than a week the three food items will be off the shelf and the owner will either have resolved the problem or will have lost a customer. Regardless, nobody will be eating the banana or the sandwich or drinking the milk, that much is almost guaranteed. If anyone finds a dealership where the food items are still good to eat once your bike is finished then buy the owner of that dealership a dinner, it could even just be a fresh banana a fresh sandwich and a fresh small carton of milk. Then tell him his shop is one of less than 10% of all shops where the CSL-Factor does not spoil and he keeps his customers in a healthy relationship. A healthy business is good, the rest should just get thrown out with the trash. Technology is good when it's readily available, but when it's not then end users often find other ways to satisfy their needs. Call this the L-Factor, "L" for life because that is just a fact of life. If something is too much hassle then people will just start using something else because nobody likes to eat a moldy sandwich and wash it down with soured chunky milk. Hmmm, I wonder if I could retrofit a Knucklehead or K-Model engine into an XB chassis and fit it with a magneto, now that would be different. Okay, carry on, but Harley will release scanalizers to customers about the same time that, uh, well, never. Bye. | ||
| Glitch |
Technology is good when it's readily available, but when it's not then end users often find other ways to satisfy their needs. True. | ||
| Hootowl |
M1Combat, "BTW, I've come to the conclusion that CPU's/IC's run on smoke. If you let the smoke out they stop working" I have long held that belief. Glitch, It shouldn't be too hard. After all it all ones and zeros. Good one man. Almost slipped past... Jeff | ||
| Bigdaddy |
1+1=0 0+1=1 1+0=0 0+0=? Binary 101 says,,,,, Postulate 1: Knowledge is power Postulate 2: Time is money Engineers know, Work/Time=Power Work/Money=Knowledge Since Knowledge=Power, and Time=Money, Work/Money=Knowledge Solve for Money, Work/Knowledge=Money Thus, as Knowledge approaches zero, Money approaches infinity regardless of the Work done. | ||
| Chainsaw |
Maybe the Mothership hasn't had any requests to make a scanilizer available to the general riding public. Maybe we can start a grass-roots letter writing campaign to Buell, everybody burn a stamp and send a letter with said request. I can buy a code reader for a Ford, Toyota, or GM for about $20 a the local auto parts store. Maybe someday a HD Scanilizer will be sitting right there next to them. HD will sell specialty wheel bearing tools and shock wrenches to John Q. Public, I would assume selling a scanilizer would just be one more money making venture to explore. C'mon, buy a scanilizer! Wille G. needs a new pair of shoes! | ||
| Glitch |
Maybe some day. But when was the last time you saw anything come from HD for $20? | ||
| Chainsaw |
Chrome head bolt covers $19.95 A steal for a "must have" item!  Harley would sell it for a lot more. That bar and shield logo makes everything worth...I mean cost, twice as much. | ||
| Glitch |
Hoot, I was wondering if someone was gonna even check into it.  | ||
| Sarodude |
See this thread. | ||
| Buckinfubba |
kaese that is total bull%^it on the wait. as far as a half hour labor that is crap too but you can't do much about what they charge. like some one said go talk to someone in charge and if they don't budge. say screw you and go find a real shop. Some days I hate that I am affiliated with HD and what they have turned into in some of their dealerships. | ||
| Kaese |
Even though that is where I purchased the bike, I have not had any service done there due to that reason. Even any parts I've ordered have always taken a week, minimum. I usually go to Modesto Buell, the 80 mile ride is worth it for the customer service I receive there. They just didn't have the color I wanted. I just stop there because convenient and on the way home. I work across the street from another Buell dealer, but if you don't have a Harley, you seem to somewhat of a pest and make sure you pay top $$. Same service issues with them. edited by kaese on November 13, 2003 | ||
| Fullpower |
Data link connector pin 1 receive data line, pin2 ground, pin 3 tx data line, pin 4 power. now if i could just find a cheap used DIGITAL TECHNICIAN HD (PART No. HD-44750) maybe i'll go look on ebay? | ||
| Oconnor |
Kaese, Which dealer? I have had good luck with dudley perkins in SF. But forget about Golden Gate HD. I heard Vallejo is cool... | ||
| M1combat |
Well, lets hope for either weak or no encryption... Random bits would suck. Anyone willing to trust a software guy to make some software and instructions that would allow YOU to hook up the PC and run the software... Heck, seems how this may as well be open source anyway they could even walk you through the program step by step to insure you that it really is just recording. As far as frying the Digital Tech. is concerned, PC's have VERY stable power supply units and filters. For the record, I wouldn't mind knowing the opinion of some other badwebbers. Specifically from an ethical standpoint. As long as there is no encryption it would be possible to release the knowledge with something like the GNU GPL thereby making it difficult to reproduce but also illegal to make money off of. Basically, most people would still be going to the dealers but the more electronically savvy (or those who know someone...) would be able to play with their bikes a bit. If encryption doesn't exist, would this force HD to implement some? | ||
| Kaese |
Oconner: It was McGuire’s in Walnut Creek. Those jokers always have 20-30 bikes waiting for service. I work across the street from Dudley Perkins on Van Ness. I took the S2 in for their 2 hour oil change and was charged $80. I thought that was a bit much. What is you opinion of their service and parts department? Tried to get some other thing done there, maybe a tire change, and it was still a 3-4 week wait. So I haven’t been back. I live in Pittsburg, and am only 20 minutes away from Vallejo. I’ll get on the phone tomorrow and see what I come up with. I guess I shouldn’t complain, there are probably 10-15 dealers in a 80 mile radius. edited by kaese on November 14, 2003 | ||
| Evaddave |
I don't think there's an ethical problem with this. Reverse engineering the TPS reset is like reverse engineering anything else on the bike. (engine, exhaust, airbox, turn signals, etc.) It just takes a different kind of reverse engineer. That being said, thanks to the RIAA and other sufficiently paranoid and wealthy organizations, if they *attempted* to encrypt the data stream, then reverse engineering the TPS reset could land you in court. | ||
| M1combat |
I see your point. I would imagine though, that if no one made any money on it and only publicized the method then there wouldn't be too many of us actually making the effort. I guess my main concern would be creating something that ends up so widespread that HD decides to encrypt the transmission (if they haven't already). Granted, it would still work on current ECM's. Anyone know what the voltage is for the ECM and Digital Tech.? Serial ports don't care too much for anything over 5V I believe. There is a 12V circuit in a PC but I don't think the serial bus is on it. I'm not an electrician but I'm thinking the ECM/DT will be 12V and we may need something in between the line and the serial port? | ||
| Fullpower |
no body will sue us for trying to get the idiot light to turn off. we own the bikes, they cant expect us to allow them to run like EPA-crap. this is ethically equivalent to changing the tires or brake pads, it just involves electronics. on the sportster, i change jets, on the buell i go to dealer and beg? there has to be a way | ||
| Oconnor |
Kaese- I have been there 3 times. Once for a flat and oil change. They had me back up in about 4 days due to having to order the tire. Bike was clean they were nice. They even had people that were familiar with the bike and happy to see a buell. The second time was the rivets that hold the inspection plate sheered off while riding. i called GGHD and they said bring it in it'll be at least a week. Sturgis and all or some BS like that. McGuire said a couple days because their only buell guy was on Vaca. I rolled in to Dudley perkins, they had me out in 20 minutes. The owner is always at their service office. Now the parts center are a bunch of HD jack asses. But they have always tried hard to find the answers to my very basic answers. Vallejo has buell enthusiasts at there parts department. Including a dyno and they sell and tune the nallin PCIII kit. But have only been there once to check it out. I am always in SF (attend to USF). As soon as school and the corps calm down, 2nd half of Dec lets go faor a ride... |
