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Arctic_firebolt
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2008 - 04:00 pm: | 
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Oh I am sure they can legally install the oil in question.
My point was when you go into an HD dealership for service and request a synthetic oil they sell in their showroom, other than SYN3, they install it and later you have oil related engine damage, HD WILL NOT repair/replace the damaged components under warranty.
(Message edited by Arctic_Firebolt on August 12, 2008) |
Tpoppa
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 13, 2008 - 09:34 am: |
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If HD was to stipulate that you must use SYN3, legally they must provide it free of charge. Also, HD cannot say that you must have your service/maintenance done at a HD dealer or the warranty wil be voided. Many dealers will tell you differently, because they want your $$. These practices are illegal under the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act.
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What the Magnuson-Moss Act Does Not Allow
There are three prohibitions under the Magnuson-Moss Act. They involve implied warranties, so-called 'tie-in sales' provisions, and deceptive or misleading warranty terms.
(a) Section 102(c) prohibits tying arrangements that condition coverage under a written warranty on the consumer’s use of an article or service identified by brand, trade, or corporate name unless that article or service is provided without charge to the consumer.
(b) Under a limited warranty that provides only for replacement of defective parts and no portion of labor charges, section 102(c) prohibits a condition that the consumer use only service (labor) identified by the warrantor to install the replacement parts. A warrantor or his designated representative may not provide parts under the warranty in a manner which impedes or precludes the choice by the consumer of the person or business to perform necessary labor to install such parts.
(c) No warrantor may condition the continued validity of a warranty on the use of only authorized repair service and/or authorized replacement parts for non-warranty service and maintenance. For example, provisions such as, ‘‘This warranty is void if service is performed by anyone other than an authorized ‘ABC’ dealer and all replacement parts must be genuine ‘ABC’ parts,’’ and the like, are prohibited where the service or parts are not covered by the warranty. These provisions violate the Act in two ways. First, they violate the section 102 (c) ban against tying arrangements. Second, such provisions are deceptive under section 110 of the Act, because a warrantor cannot, as a matter of law, avoid liability under a written warranty where a defect is unrelated to the use by a consumer of ‘‘unauthorized’’ articles or service. This does not preclude a warrantor from expressly excluding liability for defects or damage caused by such ‘‘unauthorized’’ articles or service; nor does it preclude the warrantor from denying liability where the warrantor can demonstrate that the defect or damage was so caused.
(Message edited by tpoppa on August 13, 2008) |
Arctic_firebolt
| | Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 07:46 am: |
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Hello Troppa:
That is not what I said. What I did state is that HD SYN3 is the only SYNTHETIC OIL certified by HD and it is. Here is the link. Read the second paragraph.
http://www.harley-davidson.com/pna/pa_chart_syn3_f aqs.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524448648531&FOLDER %3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302290455&ASSORTMENT%3C%3Ea st_id=2534374302290455&bmUID=1053950238917&bmLocal e=en_US
In the past, Harley-Davidson® did not recommend the use of synthetic oils in H-D/Buell® motorcycles. Why is H-D introducing a synthetic now? Because Harley-Davidson cannot test and certify all available synthetics on the market nor control their oil and additive formulations, we have discouraged their use. However, Harley-Davidson, in close partnership with our suppliers, analyzed available petrochemical technology and developed a custom-blended candidate fluid that can be used in all three cavities of a Harley-Davidson/Buell motorcycle. This product has been exclusively designed for Harley-Davidson and is the only synthetic product TESTED and CERTIFIED by Harley-Davidson engineering for use in H-D/Buell motorcycles.
What kind of testing was done on SYN3?
Further more, Magnuson-Moss DOES NOT apply because HD does NOT state that SYN3 is the only oil you can use. Any motorcycle oil that meets the API classification can be used and your warranty will remain valid. They do however, reserve the right to refuse warranty service if you use a NON-CERITIFED oil in your bike and develop engine damage.
john |
Tpoppa
| | Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 08:51 am: |
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I understand your post.
This statement:
They do however, reserve the right to refuse warranty service if you use a NON-CERITIFED oil in your bike and develop engine damage.
is basically saying that to guarantee that your warranty remains in tact you must us a HD supplied product. That is considered a deceptive practice under M-M, unless HD provides it for free. HD is well within their rights to encourage you to use their oil, but it cannot be tied to your warranty.
http://www.syntheticwarehouse.com/Warranties_Magnu son.htm
"...The highlighted section of the FTC booklet clearly says that you can’t require a purchaser to buy a manufacturer’s oil in order to maintain the warranty (whether on the engine, transmission or primary chain case). There are only two exceptions (1) you can require the use of a specific oil to maintain a warranty if you provide it free of charge (CFR) or (2) you can apply for an FTC waiver because your oil, and only your oil, would work in the specific application (US Code). We are not aware of any such free product nor of an FTC waiver application by Harley Davidson, and would aggressively oppose such application based upon the superior performance of our motorcycle oil in available and applicable industry tests. (See Motorcycle Oils white paper)"
(Message edited by tpoppa on August 14, 2008) |
Arctic_firebolt
| | Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 11:18 am: |
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Interesting debate and I certainly respect your position on the subject. However, my sentence in which you have quoted is backed by the following link. It is not a matter of whether the warranty for the whole bike is void but IF the damage to the engine was caused by the non-certified oil used.
http://www.stokesabode.com/amsoil/News/Pages/Harle y-Davidson-Warranty-Coverage.htm
That's the 'OUT' they are entitled to. The second to last sentence says it all. I did not say it had to be HD oil. I said if it is Synthetic oil there is only ONE certified brand and they can make that statement because they do approve other conventional oils. Therefore, Magnussen-Moss does not apply at all here.
If "the motor company" proves the damage was indeed caused by the oil used. Magnussen-Moss DOES NOTHING to help you. How hard will that be for them to make that claim? Who can afford to hire a panel of expert witnesses to prove them wrong?
Also, section 1.2 of my service manual specifically states; "...If HD oil is not available use an oil certified for diesel engines, ....at the first opportunity see an HD Dealer to change back to 100% HD Oil." But here I believe it is just their suggestion.
Personally I agree with Sloppy, it's all BS!!! It's semantics but then again isn't that what the law really is? If the oil ratings specified are met...end of story. The engine will be fine. |
Old_man
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 10:04 pm: |
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I used the Syn 3, while the bike was under warranty.
I now use Mobil 1 (15-50)- I think it a much better oil.
The bike runs better and cooler with the Mobil 1 |
Redbuelljunkie
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 10:45 pm: |
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H-D has denied warranty on a motorcycle due to "non H-D oil" and resulting engine failure. The owner did not have the funding to fight them in court. The manufacturer of the "inferior" oil paid to have an independent contractor determine the cause of the failure. A thorough engine tear-down and inspection determined a manufacturing flaw caused the failure. H-D still denied the warranty coverage. The oil manufacturer covered the cost of the repairs and had the bike returned to its owner. To this day, that same oil manufacturer has a warranty that covers any customer's repair denied by a dealer claiming "non-approved oil failure".
That company is Amsoil. |
Arctic_firebolt
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 10:58 am: |
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My whole point exactly! They denied the coverage AND it wasn't even due to the oil. More BS!!!
How lucky was that person to have backup to that degree? ...and we all know that Mobil 1 and the AMS oil companies of the world are every bit as good.
Yet manufacturers continue to wiggle out of there due responsibilities.
I will be going with Mobil 1 at oil change number 2. I already use it in the chaincase and transmission of my Harley and I do not believe any superior product is available on the shelf at HD. |
Tpoppa
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 11:13 am: |
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I'd be very curious to see how HD determined it was oil related. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 12:03 pm: |
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Was it someone running the Amsoil "our super duper secret magic" oil that somehow only has to be changed every 15k miles (or whatever they say)? And somebody dumb enough to believe them?
If so, I wouldn't cover it under warranty either...
Amsoil seems to be good and expensive oil. It is, however, still subject to physics :/ |
Greenlantern
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 01:29 pm: |
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Was it someone running the Amsoil "our super duper secret magic" oil that somehow only has to be changed every 15k miles (or whatever they say)? And somebody dumb enough to believe them?
Amsoil seems to be the only company still making these claims, but I recall when Synthetics first started hitting the market, alot of the big name manufacturers were making similar type claims though theirs were more in the line of 7,500-10,000 miles. Until their Lawyers got to them I guess. Good luck if you can find the old advertisments, but I suspect......they are gone! |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 03:26 pm: |
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Cars are changing also... I don't doubt Mobil 1 would have gone 10k miles just fine in an old chevy 305 motor.
But all my vehicles now (Saab 9-3 turbo, Toyota V6 VVT, Air cooled Buell, 250cc dirt bike) put an absolute *whipping* on their oil. I run full synthetic in all of them, and change at 3500 miles (knowing they could probably make it to 5000 on the full syn, but wanting the margin of error). |
Darthane
| | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 10:37 am: |
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Under 'light-duty' conditions, the oil change intervals straight out of the manual for my Mazda3 are 7500 miles, and that's using a synth blend. -=shrugs=-
I got mine changed at 1K and again at 5, and will continue to do so every 5K miles, though I'd point out that they still try to get me to change it every 3K (at the dealership, of course).
I have little doubt that a good synthetic can easily last 5K barring extreme factors (large environment changes, etc).
The Uly got changed at 1K, 3K, and will do so again at 5K and then settle into whatever the user manual states (5K, I think for the '08 bikes?). I'll be switching to synth at 5K as well, but which brand is undetermined as I'm having an extremely difficult time finding the M1 V-Twin 20W50 anymore. >.< |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 11:59 am: |
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The Saab is a turbo with oil that circulates through the turbo bearing, and has the cat right under the sump, so it sludges if you aren't careful.
The Sienna is a Toyota V6 with variable valve timing that runs come crazy light oil, and also has a dangerous history of sludge problems. Not sure why, but they do.
5k on a car is probably good, and probably keeps a safe margin. I think 5k on a air cooled motor is really pushing it.
All IMHO... based on intuition from various real world tests I have seem reported. |
Spiderman
| | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 12:46 pm: |
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he oil change intervals straight out of the manual for my Mazda3 are 7500 miles
My VW is 5k, 5k then every 10k after.
6.5 quarts of synthetic are a wonderful thing. Even after her first Oil change the oil was still damn near clear LOL |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 01:43 pm: |
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Thats a LOT of oil... not a bad idea though, especially if you are going to have the dealer do the work. Materials are cheaper then labor.
Is that VW a diesel? Can you take the 6.5 quarts of used oil, dump it in an empty tank, and top off with diesel?  |
Darthane
| | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 03:00 pm: |
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LOL...not sure what the capacity on my 3 is...probably not that high. I don't think I'd trust 10K until I had a few 'clean' 5K changes, then a few clean 6.5K changes.
Always do at LEAST what the manual asks, that's all I'm aiming for.  |
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