| Author | Message | ||
     Mmcn49 |
In the past 2 months, I’ve rerouted the breather hoses outside of the air-box and used ECM Spy to: 1. Put the idle circuit into Open Loop. 2. Advance the low RPM/TPS timing maps. 3. Enrich the Fuel Maps. After making these changes, AFV went from 100 to 105 and my 07 Lightning never ran so good. More power, a little quicker, and believe it or not the V-Twin ran almost as smooth as an inline-4. All the stumbling, bumbling and vibrations disappeared. 600 to 700 miles later rough spots and vibrations are starting to rear their ugly head again, though nowhere near as bad as when the bike was new. Now I’m getting an odd rattling type vibration above 36-3700 to about 5100 RPM. ECM Spy shows the front cylinder Fuel Map values are changing significantly and leaning out in Zone 5 Mid Range Cruising, (TPS 30-80, RPM 2400-4000). My understanding of the Buell ECM is that it has software that constantly monitors the 02 sensor and uses sensor data to reprogram itself to maintain a 14.7 to 1 ratio, (100 AFV) please correct me if I’m wrong. After seeing this I enriched the map values that had leaned out and the bike is running pretty good again. However, I don’t want to be constantly battling the ECM and re-burning fuel maps every 500 or so miles. Does anyone know: 1. Of a way to take the mid range fuel maps out of Closed Loop and put them into Open Loop? 2. Of preventing the Stock ECM from reprogramming itself in the mid cruising range? 3. If the Buell Race ECM uses the 02 sensor readings to maintain 14.7-1 like the Stock ECM? 4. If installing either the Remus Powerizer or the Dobeck Techlusion Electronic Jet Kit will trick the stock ECM and prevent it from reprogramming itself? | ||
| Id073897 |
My understanding of the Buell ECM is that it has software that constantly monitors the 02 sensor and uses sensor data to reprogram itself to maintain a 14.7 to 1 ratio, (100 AFV) please correct me if I’m wrong. You're wrong. No reprogramming. Regards, Gunter | ||
| Xl_cheese |
yeah, the ecm doesn't reprogram the maps. It adds a factor to it. If your AFV is 105 then the ecm is appling 1.05 to the map to make is a lil bit richer. I wouldn't reprogram the map. Just reset your AFV. If you only change the closed loop area it will throw off the the rest of the map. Example. If you make the closed loop area richer then the ecm will adjust via the 02 sensor and make the AFV lower to acheive 14.7:1 mix. Then when you're in open loop your bike will run too lean because that lower AFV is being applied to it. | ||
| Bombardier |
Engine temp sensor could be the cause. This can affect both the fuel and timing inputs. It does SHIFT occaisionally and will need replacing but does not trigger a trouble code as it is still working but not within spec. The correct specs and how to test it are in the service manual. Currently looking into sourcing an aviation spec sensor that can be placed in a less inhospitable environment and still have the same readings. Will try it out and let you all know. | ||
| Arctic_firebolt |
Not so much! The Buell uses both an open and a closed loop system across the RPM range. The programming is live and on the fly according to measurements taken from several sensors. Yes, it is in a constant state of re-programming. When an electronic system is, "learning" it is reprogramming itself. The definition of reprogramming is to revise or rewrite a new program. Data pulled from my bike will NEVER be identical to your bike regardless of the mapping we both start with. A simple Open Loop system would NOT be re-programming. Electronic Control Module (ECM) The ECM receives signals from the ET, IAT, CMP, 02, TPS and BAS. The ECM contains all the information needed to provide the proper fuel and spark mapping sequentially and individually to the front and rear cylinders of the engine at the proper time. The second type of EFI system operates as a CLOSED LOOP system. This system not only uses spark and fuel "maps" but also feedback from an exhaust gas oxygen (O2) sensor to continually adjust the amount of fuel delivered. This offers the advantage of "learning" the behavior of the engine over time as well as responding to a wider variety of conditions encountered while riding than that of an OPEN LOOP system. http://buelltuning.free.fr/injang.htm Therefore Mmcn49 you are correct. | ||
| Id073897 |
No maps are changed, no reprogramming of anything takes place. Fuel is adopted to the various signals by applying adders and multiplyers to the map values, which stay unchanged. Regards, Gunter | ||
| Mmcn49 |
When I first bought the bike it averaged 51 MPG on the open road but ran rough, lots of stumbling and bumbling. After making Fuel & Timing Map changes with ECM Spy, highway mileage dropped to 46-47 MPG but the bike ran great. About 600 miles later mileage is up to 50, but the bike runs rough again, lots of vibrations. I want a smooth running bike and am more than willing to sacrifice 5 MPG to obtain it. Question: Does anyone know of a way to put the ECM into Open Loop throughout the entire RPM & TPS range? The ECM’s ability of learning engine behavior and changing fuel & timing values has not enhanced engine performance for me. | ||
| Retrittion |
FYI to those who might not know, Gunter is the guy who works on ECMspy (last I heard) so if he says no he is most likely right. From what I have found data logging and such the maps stay the same, the ECM only modifies this by changing the AFV +/- to adjust for lean or rich conditions it senses. Seems like you might be fighting the engine because you are doing things incorrectly -- you might want to double check that you are following the guide available on the ECMspy site and not messing with stuff that will brake your bike. I would suggest data logging and then running your log through Megalogviewer and letting it give you a improved map -- do that a few times and it should give you a smooth map. Otherwise send your data to Xopti and see what they can do for you. The gas milage thing is most likely the result of using more fuel to richen your bike up (running "better" but using more fuel). My .02, Cheers. (Message edited by retrittion on July 29, 2008) | ||
| Xl_cheese |
Try this trick. http://www.buelletinboard.com/forums/showthread.ph p?p=51557#post51557 Adjusting the o2 calibration in ecmspy will make the entier map a lil richer. It seemed to fix my studdering at low rpm low tps. | ||
| Id073897 |
When I first bought the bike it averaged 51 MPG on the open road but ran rough, lots of stumbling and bumbling. After making Fuel & Timing Map changes with ECM Spy, highway mileage dropped to 46-47 MPG but the bike ran great. About 600 miles later mileage is up to 50, but the bike runs rough again, lots of vibrations. I want a smooth running bike and am more than willing to sacrifice 5 MPG to obtain it. This is quite logical if you remember how closed loop seems to work: The ECM starts with some fuel and monitors O2. Then, be mixture lean or rich, EGO correction is applied in the direction of (I guess) O2 target voltage until the other limit (rich or lean voltage) is crossed. Now the cycle starts again, but in opposite direction. The link proves my assumption. By rising the lean voltage (which is not necessarily lean mixture, but marks the "lean limit" for the ECM), the "leaning" cycle ends "richer", before everything turns to rich again, so in average you get a richer mixture. I think watching AFV not running amok in that situation is necessary, but I don't assume this will happen. Does anyone know of a way to put the ECM into Open Loop throughout the entire RPM & TPS range? Set O2 activation rpm to a limit never reached. This will provide O2 activated for closed loop but the ECM still monitors O2 for logging purposes. I'm not sure, but I think this will also disable open loop learning, so monitor the mixture to prevent running lean in OL. The stock map turned out to be lean in CL region, so run logs and correct if necessary. This will be a bit tedious with a NB sensor, but possible. You might need lots of runs and many maps to achieve that. Best do it on a WB sensor equipped dyno. Regards, Gunter | ||
| Retrittion |
Hey Gunter, any chance of a "sample then optimize" utility in an upcoming ECMspy update? Would be nice to just data log for 10-15 minutes, get a optimization map that ECMspy generated, upload it and repeat a few times to get a smoothed map. Not as good as fully tweaking and/or dynoing but maybe smooth out the stock map a good bit, maybe mellow the flat spot just after idle, etc. Just hoping -- still love the program as it is. | ||
| Id073897 |
No, because no more updates, just bug fixes in the future. Ralf had to stop development for time (lack of ...) reasons. Analysis is done by the MLV, which is the best tool we could get for this task. Regards, Gunter | ||
| Buford |
Gunter: Im running a pair of WB sensors and MLV to create new fuel tables. When I use the default AFRbins to target the middle of the maps to 14.7 the new maps actually result in AFRs of 12.5 per the gauge. What could I be doing wrong here or is this a MLV glitch? thanks! | ||
| Buford |
Relocating the IAT sensor behind the flyscreen solved the problem... |
