| Author | Message | ||
     Randomchaos |
Well, I decided to go out for some riding around town today after I got off work. Temperature was about 70-75 out. I noticed after a few stop lights this god awful sound, kinda like rocks bouncing around inside of her. At the same time, I noticed a decent loss of power. Only occured at full throttle, and could be replicated fairly easily after each stop light. Im a little worried about it. It wasnt a little pinging, it was ALOT. Anytime I would open it up full throttle after a stoplight, it would do it. With the temperature not even close to what it gets to during the summer, im afraid im not going to be able to ride her without blowing her up during the summer! I know these bikes are prone to pinging, but are they prone to this bad?Along with the pinging I have been having other issues. I just replaced the battery in it, cause I thought some of the hard starting was due to it. Turns out it wasnt. The bike still takes 2 or more tries to start, and run without dieing. The idle jumps around from 500RPMs to 1100RPMs when cold. No matter how warm or cold the engine is, it seems to choke, or miss alot when holding it at a constant speed. When decelerating, its not smooth, with a fair ammount of backfiring. Any ideas? I might just end up taking it in to the dealership since I have the extended warranty...but not sure how good the one in town is with working on Buells. | ||
| Akbuell |
First thought is an intake gasket gone bad. Causes a lean mixture, which can lead to all of the symptoms described. Second likely suspect is the eng temp sensor. If no check engine light, a chaffed wire? As an aside, has it been awhile since a TPS reset? | ||
| Randomchaos |
TPS was reset maybe 1000 miles ago. Im probably going to end up dropping the bike off at the dealership on Sunday and letting them have a crack at it. I was hoping it might be something super simple though that I can check myself. I know the fan comes on regularly as the engine warms up while sitting in traffic, so not sure it would be the temp sensor. Any other quick little things I can check for? | ||
| Hughlysses |
It'd be worth trying a tank of fresh premium fuel before you take it to the dealer. Maybe you just got a bad tank or the truck driver dumped regular in the premium tank or something. | ||
| Randomchaos |
Hmm, I know Im on my 2nd tank now still with the rough running issues after the battery change. Might try it out for the pinging issue though as the problems could easily be completely unrelated. | ||
| Bombardier |
Have you rerouted your breather hoses yet? The oil that gets on the Air Intake Temp sensor and the O2 sensor as well as your plugs will not be doing it any favours. | ||
| Wantxbr |
Spray a little carb cleaner around your intake manifold while the motor is running and listen to your idle to see if it raises or lowers. If it does either you have an intake leak. Easy quick check. And have you checked your spark plugs. Might have on fouling. (Message edited by wantxbr on May 16, 2008) | ||
| Boney95 |
Spray a little carb cleaner around your intake manifold while the motor is running and listen to your idle to see if it raises or lowers. If it does either you have an intake leak. Easy quick check. Would this also work for the can and header connection? If not, how could you test the connection for leaks? I'm all paranoid, I just put on a new can. | ||
| Punkid8888 |
do not use carb cleaner near the Header. If you have a leak in the exhaust you can find it pretty easy by folding up a towel and placing it over the outlet of you exhaust creating more pressure in the system, and leaks will make a lot more noise. | ||
| Randomchaos |
I havent rerouted the breather hoses, but want to. My only problem is I dont have the money for a catchcan  . Does the racekit make the bike more prone to pinging and running like this? | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
Ok, let's see if we can understand what the problem is. A couple of questions to begin. 1. First of all, neither the race kit nor the lack of a catch can will cause pinging, if the TPS is reset when the Race ECM is installed. Put in any event, it was running fine except for the starting problem, until this pinging started the other day, right? 1. Did this start just after you installed the new battery? If so, that, and the fact that you report that the new battery did not cure the hard starting problems as it should have, suggests that there might be an electrical problem related to a bad ground. This should not in itself cause pinging, but a bad ground can cause all sorts of problems that are hard to diagnose. 2. Pinging is normally caused by one of three things: a. bad fuel b. retarded timing c. lean mixture, which can be caused by intake leak mentioned above. d. improper TPS reset. 3. Did the pinging start after a stop for fuel? Did it start in the middle of a tank full? You can see where I am going here - trying to identify an incident in the fuel or electrical system that happened just before the pinging started. So far I can see three changes: a. TPS reset b. new fuel c. new battery The timing rarely just suddenly changes on its own accord, but it could happen if the screws that hold the timing plate get loose. Never heard of that happening myself. Bad fuel is very common, especially since the price has gone up so much, people have been tempted to adulterate it. Simply adding more fuel doesn't necessary solve the problem. Removing the old fuel first is a better idea. A little hard to do with the Buell Fuel pump hidden in the frame, but a lot can be siphoned out of the tank. Bad TPS resets are a common as grass, but yours seems to have occurred long before the pinging problem. The new battery's failure to cure the starting problem is a big indicator to me that the problem is related to that, because on a properly running bike, a new battery will solve that problem easily, especially if the battery charged before installation, and continues to be charged properly by the on bike charging system. So, hard starting and poor running could be caused by the intake leak problem cited by several brothers above, a poor ground, or other wiring problem: the Buell wiring is very prone to shorts due to wire chaffing. Or it could be something else entirely.  I hope you will enlighten us when the mystery is finally solved. Always more fun to do it yourself, than taking it to the dealers, and usually a lot more effective. | ||
| Rubberdown |
Jon, regarding timing, I thought advanced timing more the culprit than retarded timing. | ||
| Randomchaos |
I usually dont go riding through stop and go traffic long enough to warm up the motor to kick on the fan as well. This was the first time I have taken the bike around town and gotten stopped by several stoplights while the outside temp was in the 70s. Usually I stick to town when its cold, and backroads when its warm. I just realised that I had been having a little pinging before as well. I thought it had just been my keys rattling on the top tripple at the time, but now that I think about it, it was real loud like what I had yesterday. Didnt last nearly as long as it did yesterday, but it did happen occasionally. Yesterday, the motor just sounded, and felt like it was about to tear itself apart as I would go WOT after a stoplight. I would do the work myself if it was a quick simple fix, like a plug on the harness that came unplugged. Since I have the Extended warranty from the dealership though, and havent changed anything on the bike since I got it except for the windscreen, frame pucks, and grips, it should be covered. Im glad to hear that the racekit should not be causing the issues. | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
Mike, thanks for that - my bad. I should have said that most pinging is caused by advanced timing, which is very common on Buells as delivered from the factory. Don't know why. The cure is to retard the timing. Here is a link to a thorough discussion of the cause and the cure by Glitch. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/327 77/211240.html?1153343570 It is always a good idea to have a preliminary diagnosis before going to the service department, because the only owner knows the history of the bike and the problem, (hopefully:-) | ||
| Wantxbr |
Randomchaos I made a catch can outta 3/4 inch PVC Pipe about 7 inches long. Works great. Carb cleaner is only for the intake. Do what Punkid said to do.Its a low quality picture from my phone sorry. http://www.musclecross.com/forum/uploads/4_catchcan1.jpg (Message edited by wantxbr on May 16, 2008) | ||
| Randomchaos |
Interesting, what do the guts of your PVC catchcan look like? I have seen pictures of the American Sport Bike one on the inside. Looks to require an inlet hole with a tube going to the bottom, then an outlet with a small breather attached, and a drain plug. I had read of people adding in some steel wool to help grab the gunk. Might make a trip to the hardware store this weekend and get to crafting  | ||
| Acejay |
i get pinging all the time in my bike. the worst it has happened though was on a similar day to yours, just about 21-22 degrees, riding through the bottom of the city which is about 6 blocks. by half way through the city i thought it was going to hand grenade, it was all i could do just to take off and get it moving, no power at all. the fan did not come on at all until just as i was leaving the city!! now i was running 95 that day as i couldn't get any 98, but it sounded like a 30 year old diesel about to crap itself, and the weather was completely mild. just goes to show how sensitive these things are to the quality of petrol used. i took it to the dealer afterward, and as far as they were concerned, there was nothing wrong with it. and now a question, would running an octane booster help with the pinging? or if its tuned to run on 98, does it make no difference if you put any extra in? | ||
| Wantxbr |
the drain valve is on the bottom, I drilled and tapped the end cap, The top is the inlet, I did the same to the top i did to the bottom drill and tap. Next to the inlet coming out the side is the vent tube. I havn't put a filter on it but I may not, it works fine without it. And theres nothing inside its just hollow. I may get some stainless steel wool but I think its fine as it stands (Message edited by wantxbr on May 16, 2008) | ||
| Randomchaos |
Well, dropped the bike off saturday, they just called me today. Said they reset the TPS and adjusted the idle, and looks to be good to go now. A quick question, does the TPS need to be reset after removing the battery? Gonna pick her up after work and see how she runs! | ||
| Firebolteric_ma |
NO | ||
| Randomchaos |
Hmmm just thought of something. I know ECMspy, you need to select the exact ECM when connecting to it. Is it possible that the TPS reset I had done 1000 miles ago by the dealership was done on a none Race ECM? I know they dont use ECMspy at the dealership, but just wondering if theirs might work the same basic way. They called me today before they did the work on it to ask me which ECM I had on the bike. Just a thought me and my dad had when we were talking about it. | ||
| Randomchaos |
Well, she is running ALOT smoother than before. Im able to ride through a 15mph school zone now without having to slip the clutch to keep the bike from being a bucking bull. It still dies when first starting it up of a morning though. Only did it once to me, but still, I dont think it should do that. Did the usual thing of idle drops, then it just kinda fizzles out. Going to try the intake manifold leak test today after I get off work. Also need to run it around town in heavy traffic to see if it will ping. High today of around 78. | ||
| Xoptimizedrsx |
you have ecmspy correct. do the timing test with it to make sure the timing is tdc on the marks. as i have found many to be off both advanced and retarded. also check the plug wires. timing can be checked on the plug hole between the cylinders. a 5 vlt signal is what you want tdc or a 0 vlts depending on what cyl you are on. to the center of the hole not forward or backwards. if its off you will have to drill out the holes(rivets) then reset the timing. simple but a must check and ecmspy will do the job. mike | ||
| Randomchaos |
Well, after 2 days of riding her for a little over 100 miles, I have to say, the bike runs great. After that one time of dieing the day after I picked it up, it hasnt done it to me since. I can actually take off from a stop whether the motor is hot or cold without reving it up and slipping the clutch to keep it from stalling. I did get it to ping a little, but only after sitting in stop and go traffic for a good 20 minutes. Im figuring the timing needs to be retarded a little. So looks like the TPS reset and idle adjustment worked. Oh, did I mention that she pulls even harder now? Zipping around town just got alot more fun | ||
| Xb9rnutt |
Did the TPS change the sound of the exhaust at all? It seems like after I had the TPS reset my bike isn't as loud. | ||
| Randomchaos |
Didnt change the sound of my exhaust. Still loud as hell Still pinging pretty good on me. Was sitting in stop and go traffic yesterday for a good bit. Ambient temp outside around 80 degrees. Couldnt go even half throttle without it pinging alot and feeling down on power. Sucks to have all this torque, and not be able to use it once the motor heats up Wish I had the tools to check and set the timing. | ||
| Blake |
At what engine speed range is the pinging happening? | ||
| Randlepmcmurphy |
I read the other thread and my bike seems to be having this problem. I'm confident i can adjust the timing myself I just have one simple question after you drill out the rivets what is the best way to re- install the cover. Self tappers or what? | ||
| Xoptimizedrsx |
you dont neeed to move it there just change the table values in ecmspy in the target area it pinging at. if you go inside and rotate the core it will move the whole table making so areas way to retarded. all i need to know is what rpm do you hear the ping. if you back off the timing right there and it still pings its a fuel issue. you can easly fix that too. with one code to change. if you ping is at low rpm but at hard accelerations. and its not timing just use ecmspy to fix either. add fuel buy adding the % of applied acceleration time to the fuel. its in the other maps page. you can also bump up the wot fuel gain as well as open loop area. just download the thing get yourself a cable. and gemini and myself will help you all we can. i'n not really fimalure with this site but i'm sure a ecmspy Q&A room can be made like we have on our site we use most of the time. if you close to jacksonville florida we are teaching a free class and free tuning. june 21 2008 at ademec harley/buell. just bring a note book to jot it all down. its a tells all class. | ||
| Randomchaos |
Well, she has starting dieing again at idle after starting up when cold . Idle starts off good, around 1000 RPMs, then drops to like 400, then back up. Does this a few times til finally it drops and kinda sputters out. Start it up again, seems to fire oddly, like both cylindars firing at almost the same time, then smooths out. It seems to ping at lower RPMs, ie below 3k. This weekend, it was doing it to me at half throttle or higher. The odd thing this weekend was, I was cruising at around 60mphs, and after slowing to turn off onto another road, and accelerating for some fun, it pinged. Before, it has only been doing it after sitting in traffic. Temp was about 80 degrees out. Had been going 60 in 5th gear for a good 10 miles. Its also running rough again when trying to cruise at a constant speed. Trying to go anything below 20mph without slipping the clutch is like riding a pissed off bull. I never got a chance to run an intake manifold leak test. Was a really busy weekend =\. Planning to take it up to the dealership again though. If the dealership cant find anything wrong with it, then I will probably try messing with the timing. | ||
| Impulsespcg |
+1 on the timing adjust. I was having major ping on 'high traffic days' and went the ECMSpy route to check the timing, What I found inside the timing cover was quite surprising. The mark was much closer to the edge of the hole than the center (where the manual sayes to set it) So I reset to the center per the manual, and MUCH MUCH better. I can still get a little ping when sitting too long in traffic, but it is at a significantly lower level, and I really have to slow-n-go for a while to get it. For the timing cover, per another post, I tapped the rivet holes for 10-32, installed some stainless socket heads and safety wired them for a kinda racey look  Good luck - there's some very smart people on this board. PS - Take the dealer with a grain of salt. I tried having the dealer work my ping issue with the following results: 1. You can't adjust timing on those new Buells. (2005) 2. We don't have the software to do that, but we should be getting it soon. Not bashing the dealer, just making the point that you can do quite a bit on your own... Imp |
