| Author | Message | ||
     Fasteddieb |
I just spent a few days up at my N Ga house and had a chance to do a couple projects on my Firebolt. I also got to recall what a GREAT bike the Firebolt is in the twisties! For background, I had suffered two sensor failures in around 4,000 miles. Though the new sensor is an updated (allegedly improved) model - look for an "A" suffix" - there is still debate whether that alone will solve the problem. Bill Kilgallon from this forum provided me with one of his custom filters, along with instructions. It involves splicing into the red and black wires on the sensor. There is a third wire involved, which Bill assumed to be green, but on the new sensor is white. FWIW (from the Buell schematic) Red = Power Black = Sensor Ground White = Veh Speed Sensor (apparently green on earlier models) I had planned to trim back the insulation and only splice the red and black, but the insulation is thick and the wires are thin, and it was easier just to cut the damn wire and be done with it. I solded the wires and used shrink-wrap over both the individual connections and the bundle of three.     Bill provides a red LED which will light up if things are in order. I plugged the unit in and "Eureka!" - red light! (whew!).  Ty-wrapped everything in place and went for a couple rides. In around 100 miles, the sensor hasn't failed.  You can see the filter is kinda close to the exhaust, and gets a little warm. I'm considering cutting a piece of heat shield insulation and placing it between the filter and the exhaust. Of course, if that's the end of my sensor problems, it will always be difficult to determine whether the updated sensor alone would have solved the problem. Nothing wrong with a belt AND suspenders. Thanks to both Bill and the admins of this list for providing such an informative forum! | ||
| Hootowl |
I've blown one of those new and improved sensors. The 5V regulator is the solution. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Cool Eddie! Thanks for the writeup. That is automotive wire shielding, it'll probably hold up OK, though more heat shield will never hurt. Interestingly, on my cyclone, the LED only comes on (and the sensor is only getting power) when the engine kill switch is on run. Scared me the first time I hooked things up, thought I built a bad filter. Eddie got the last of the "hand built prototypes". The new ones are etched pc boards, i.e. hand built production units. They are about a third of the size of the one shown above, so a discrete installation should be even easier. I also got some really nice dark grey multistranded three conductor wire for the pigtails, so that should look nicer as well. The colors still are not perfect, but like on Eddies two of the three match, so it is still easy to wire up. I will try and post some pictures of the new units soon, I want to get the ones I owe shipped out first. Bill | ||
| Reepicheep |
Oh.. and based on those pictures, that is *not* the updated sensor, or at least not one of the updated sensors in circulation. Somebody sent me one to splice in for them, and it looked different then the one you pictured. It had a strain relief loop like an inch long down by the sensor. That one looks like the original (which is fine, the new ones fail just as often as the old ones). | ||
| 99x1 |
I find it very surprising that Buell didn't filter the speedo sensor - from the application notes for the ATS660 gear tooth sensor: "In automotive applications, where the device receives its power from an unregulated supply such as the battery, full protection is generally required so that the device can withstand the many supply-side transients. Specifications for such transients vary between car manufacturers, and protection-circuit design should be optimized for each application." I haven't had a chance to fully scope the sensor yet, but with ignition coil spiking, fuel pump motor arcing, fuel injectors firing, starter/solenoid loads, turn signal cycling, vibration induced opens, and brake light load/unload - I fully expect to see transients.... | ||
| Fasteddieb |
<<That one looks like the original (which is fine, the new ones fail just as often as the old ones). >> Things that make you go hmmmm... I got the sensor from Daves at Iowa Harley, and the baggie had a part number with the "A" suffix I was told to look for. Oh. well - so far so good... | ||
| Reepicheep |
There may have been more then one part with that A revision. I don't know if the different one I saw was newer or older. The bag said 74431-01A, with a date of 04-03. Regardless, with the filter, you are ahead of the game regardless of what part you got. You problem is solved. | ||
| Blake |
Bill, You've gone and done it! Rumor now has it that Buell has stepped up and assembled an upgrade kit for all pre 5V ('00 thru early '03 models) speedo sensors. No word yet if the factory upgrade kit will be a freebie, or what if any price it will carry. Release is planned within weeks. Stay tuned. The cheap Reeper's fix may well be the more cost effective solution. Kudos to Buell for finally stepping up to solve this niggling problem. Buell Corp, You should have done it years ago and saved yourself a bunch of money and some disappointed customers. | ||
| Court |
>>>Buell Corp, You should have done it years ago and saved yourself a bunch of money and some disappointed customers. Blake Corp: Thanks to folks like these enterprising Badwebbers, Buell got factual info fast that aided in sorting out coincident technical and a supply issues and put a REAL solution in place. (remember the SRB?). This stuff takes time and the process has no provision for being short circuited. I don't know and can't say, but my bet is that the folks at Buell are genuinely kicking themselves that owners had ANYTHING untoward occur with an XB and simultaneously thrillianted to have the solution.  . . just a guess, but I could be wrong. Court | ||
| Blake |
Court, Have not speedo sensors been failing in significant number since the 1999 models were released upon us? That adds up to four years by my count.  | ||
| Blake |
A quick search for "+speedo +sensor" in the KV yielded the following link... http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/3842/5023.html#POST49897 And the most pertinent (Bill's original post on the subject)... http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/3842/5060.html#POST52689 Also for the factory... http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/6/6715.html#POST62302 I think the problem may have been misdiagnosed originally as a wire breakage problem. Thus it didn't receive the attention/solution it really needed. | ||
| Reepicheep |
And lets give credit where credit is due here. We had some pretty good hints from anonymous and semi anonymous people what the problem was, and what the fix should be, and a number of people (like Hootowl) helped reach a good solution for our homebrew fix. So the factory *did* probably help us early on, as we helped them. It's a great setup, and I appreciate the people that helped us help ourselves until the official factory fix goes out. 99X1 found the real score... a $6 part that can be used to rebuild the stock sensor instead of dropping another $50. So for about $12 worth of parts, you can have a fixed and protected replacement. It was a transient failure related to particular bikes or batches of sensors with at least four major unrelated failure modes. I am annoyed to have spent $100 on replacement sensors, but I understand that a corporate fix is going to take some time to be done right. They fixed the first three failure modes pretty quickly (bad potting, fragile wires, poor installation). The last (transients on particular bikes under particular conditions) took a bit longer to identify (but unfortunately turned out to be the most common failure mode). These simultaneous unrelated failure modes can create a snarl that takes a bit to work out. We could get a fix out here, because we did not have to be right. At worst, it was $6 or so worth of harmless parts, and we did not charge anyone for anything. An easy way to meet consumer expectations, a lousy way to run a business. Basically, we could afford to be wrong. The corporate solutions don't have that luxury. And even our fix would have been problematic if Buell had not already addressed the other three failure modes, these filters were nearly universally installed on *new* updated filters with the better potting and better wires. I also suspect the part had to cross corporate boundaries, as the sportsters likely had issues as well. That no doubt slows things as well. | ||
| Darthane |
Reep, Put me down for two if you can - I'll toss one in the Blast (already gone through one sensor on that) and one in the 'bolt (better safe than sorry!). Just let me know how much and where to send it to...you da man! | ||
| Reepicheep |
No problem Darthene, it might be a week or two though. I have a batch to get out now, and then will be totally tied up for the following week. After that, the schedule is wide open though. | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Bill, Seeing as how I am now a 2 Buell family, I'll be needing a second filter. Brad | ||
| Blake |
Any way I can integrate one of those filters between my brain and the keyboard?  | ||
| Anonymous |
Blake, to steal a line from the movie Jaws. We're gonna need a bigger filter. | ||
| Cyclone1 |
Just to chime in...we haven't seen very many failures at the shop in sportsters. I'm wondering if its more prevelant on fuel injected bikes. It would make sense according to what 99X1 posted...just a thought  Frank | ||
| Blake |
Anony, I suspect you are correct.  Frank, Good question, so I did some digging... About half of the ~100 speedo sensor failures reported by BadWeBr's in their user profile are for Cyclones and Blasts. That would tend to indicate that the DDFI is not a factor in the sensor failures. | ||
| Dave |
I guess I need to update my profile. After I took my 99 S3 out of winter hibernation...I drained the red line (nasty goo build up) and through some Sport Trans in the nuked demon thinking I'll run it a few months and go to Mobile. A month or so later heading to the Gap I had a speedo sensor failure at about 28k miles. Brian indicated he has a theory that it is some how linked to the Sport Trans. Odd ... DAve | ||
| Cyclone1 |
Blake, Hmmm..well that blows my theory out of the water...but it still doesn't explain why we don't have as much trouble on the sportsters. LOL, and let me tell ya...we see ALOT of sportsters, hehe. Maybe the speedo sends some weird voltage back to the sensor through the signal wire. I would think there would be a diode in there somewhere though. Hell, I dunno  Frank | ||
| Kcbill |
I believe Richie has had 3or 4 failures and he has a 2k Cyclone. Wouldn't Buell be wiring their bikes different than the Harleys. I would have to look at the schematics and compare the differences. I couldn't fully do that because I'm not an electronics tech. I believe Bill has figured that out. Richie has put his fix on and I guess we will see how it holds up. | ||
| Blake |
Maybe rpm related? Buells running at a higher engine speed overall? | ||
| Cyclone1 |
That's a good thought, Blake...kinda makes sense in my head anyways LOL Frank |
