| Author | Message | ||
     Skully |
Many of you probably remember the great debate over the ZTL versus conventional brakes a few weeks ago. "Motorcyclist" magazine ran an article in June's "Ask the Pro" where James Parker offered up his opinions without backing them up with facts. Well, its seems the article got BMC's attention. See "The word from Buell" below ("Motorcyclist", August 2007):  Keith | ||
| Indy_bueller |
Go get 'em Abe! | ||
| Thespive |
Kick Ass Abe! --Sean | ||
| Diablobrian |
Spread the word Abe! Hallelujah! Do you see the Light? | ||
| M1combat |
Abe probably knows better than me but instead of calling the ZTL2 "state of the art" I would have called it "The" state of the art. Way to go Abe. If Motorcyclist's employees are so naive that they can't objectively judge the benefits and/or drawbacks of a brake system then •••• them. I've never bought their magazine and I never will. | ||
| M1combat |
Just sent this off to Motorcyclist... "About Buell's ZTL braking system and your apparent lack of motivation to objectively judge it's strengths and weaknesses... I'll assume that you just stood back and looked at the systems side by side and came up with what you figured was a brilliant dismissal of a braking system that is not just "State of the art" but is "The" state of the art of production motorcycle brakes. As Abe Askenazi pointed out there are a number of benefits reaped from this leap forward in braking technology. I have both felt and watched those benefits work on and off of the racetrack. They are not insignificant. From heavy braking in a bumpy brake zone to sticking to a proper line around a bumpy apex the ZTL system just plain works better than other braking systems mounted to other production motorcycles. My favorite canyon roads have bumps as well... The ZTL system really shines here. It's amazing to me how you can simply dismiss the benefits of a significant reduction of un-sprung mass on the front wheel of a motorcycle. I'm thinking that you actually had to make an effort to dismiss them as opposed to trying to be honest and objective with your pen. That's some great journalism right there. I challenge you to mount a ZTL2 system to a 600 class motorcycle of your choice and compare lap times... Maybe even find some hairy back country canyon road and see where the system really shines. " | ||
| Hughlysses |
Great rebuttal. Engineering knowledge versus rectal database opinion. | ||
| Court |
Buell arrives at the intellectual battlefield well represented. In addition to being disarming nice, Abe Askenazi is perhaps one of the smartest chaps I've had the pleasure of standing before with my signature befuddled look on my face. Abe, one of the finest things the USA has imported from Mexico City, wrote his Master's Thesis on the dynamics of inline two wheel vehicles. He rode, until he was lured to the darkside by Mini-Cooper, his Ducati Monster research vehicle to work at Buell every day. Abe combines real world seat of the pants knowledge with a keen and in-depth understanding of the science. He's like Blake, only less boring. It's a joy to be part of the Buell community and have the intellectual guns and guts to rebut some of the hogwash that gets printed as "fact". On the Friday of Homecoming, after he did his presentation, Abe took his staff to lunch. As they left, I laughed to myself thinking what it would be like to be a mouse near that table . . . I'm not sure I could understand any of it. What I do know is that each time I ride a Buell all those things that "look" like they should work all of a sudden begin to. Folks tend to make "intuitive" judgments based on previously acquired information. In the day when Battle2Win had a review of the, then only available, perimeter braking system the comments reflected the problems imposed by the yet-to-be-solved engineering problems. Those problems were, as alluded to in Motorcyclist related to the added weight and moments of the system. Abe, and the Team at Buell, went back and looked at the ENTIRE SYSTEM. At the 12" moment arm on the front wheel the physics don't much care if the mass at that station is rotor or wheel. The rotor was pretty well fixed; Buell went to work on the wheel. . challenging conventional design and asking what, given that the torsional loads are now gone, doesn't need to be here any longer. Away went LOTS of the wheel and with it the weight and rotating mass. I'm proud to be associated with Buell and proud to see the folks at Buell standing up and asserting "we are right" and subjecting them to the scrutiny of the riding public. The Buell family is about to become much larger and I could not be more excited about it. Court  | ||
| Djkaplan |
Motorcyclist seems to have degenerated into a group of cast offs from other moto-publications. The editorial staff purposely publishes controversial subject matter guarenteed to ruffle the feathers of groups ranging from the Snell Foundation to the smaller motorcycle manufacturers. I can't recall one scoop they've published in the last few years that was actually true or even real. It's just a flip through mag on the stands for me now, not something I buy anymore. Too bad. They used to be pretty good, but it seems like every staffer has a private axe to grind. | ||
| Spatten1 |
I think Motorcyclist is improving in the last few months since Catterson replaced Boehm as Senior Editor. The one exception is James Parker. He just keeps writing about how other people's ideas and inventions are not correct. I hope he starts writing more like Kevin Cameron, or they drop him. | ||
| Jaimec |
On the other hand, I have heard many people complain about brake fade with the ZTL during track days and REALLY aggressive back road riding. I've experienced it a bit myself, but I don't know if it's any more or less than what I'd get from a standard brake. It's not like I ride my K1200LT the same way. I've seen Matt (Trojan) repeatedly criticizing the ZTL for brake fade under hard use right here on BadWeb. PS: That article on Snell vs. the World was EXCELLENT reporting on a controversial subject and one I've been hearing about for years before Motorcyclist took the brave stance of pissing off their sponsors to report. Their website even has Snell's lame rebuttal and their response to the rebuttal. Of course Snell would disagree... their paychecks depend on those certification stickers! (Message edited by jaimec on July 19, 2007) | ||
| Blake |
"I have heard many people complain about brake fade with the ZTL during track days and REALLY aggressive back road riding." I haven't. However, I suspect that your idea of what constitutes "many" may be very different from mine. | ||
| New12r |
I have had no brake fade issues the ZTL setup. But then again I had a buddy on a GSXR tell me, you should really upgrade to stainless lines and Double H rated pads.  The look on his face when I told him my bike came with that stuff stock!  | ||
| Djkaplan |
If you have an issue with the not-for-profit Snell Foundation's testing procedure for helmet certification, you can personally call and speak to them. It's not required that any manufacturer that sells their helmets in the US pay to have their helmets tested or certified, it's done on a voluntary basis by the manufacturers themselves. I think it's irresponsible to portray the Snell Foundation's rebuttal as lame (based on what... your own scientific testing?) or to insinuate that their testing procedure is compromised just from one article in a magazine noted for misleading it's readers on 'scoops' and 'inside information'. I have no affiliation with the Snell Foundation, but it's not hard to see when an organization is really trying to help and make things better for everyone. | ||
| Jaimec |
Surprise: The manufacturers DO pay for Snell certification. Where do you get your "facts?" And did you actually read their response? Or are you just jumping all over for me because you've nothing better to do? http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/gearbox/motorcycle_helmet_review/ (Message edited by jaimec on July 19, 2007) | ||
| Imonabuss |
I have to say that I agree Catterson is noticeably changing Motorcyclist. This is one of a number of examples that show the new face. I agree Parker is way too full of himself, and really does not have the success credentials to back up his position as an expert. However, Motorcyclist did publish Abe's response, and didn't take advantage of their position to diss him with a further editorial response. This is a big step from the twisted world of Mitch (Honda Boy) Boehm. | ||
| Sneth |
you know damn well when the patent is up, you will see it on dozens of other bikes... same with unslung exhaust. | ||
| Djkaplan |
Where did I say they don't pay for the certification if they have it done, Jaimec? The Snell certification is not required to sell a helmet in the US. If a manufacturer wants it tested, they pay for it, but it's done on a VOLUNTARY basis. If they wanted to, they could tell Snell to go to hell and still sell their helmets in the US. I do have better things to do than to discuss important facts with someone who doesn't understand them... actually. Say what you want, I'm done. You got a problem, call Snell. | ||
| Xbcrazy |
With regard to brake fade... I have had issues with front brake fade/lack of brake lever pressure on several occasions on the race track. I believe many others who race their Buells have experienced the same. The fix has been to replace the stock Nissin master with a Brembo radial master. This would in no way imply that the root of the problem was coming from the ZTL system. In fact, with the new master in place, the ZTL system performs even better. Pete | ||
| Scottsts |
I read Parkers comments in Motorcyclists or whatever and frankly, his position didn't seem critical of Buells design at all. He wasn't knocking it. Personally, Buells response seems a little harsh, like they believe they were indeed attacked or something. | ||
| Chessm |
actually i would love to see some independent testing of the ZTL system VS a normal 2 disk setup. for many reasons, i know it wouldnt be easy, but i still think it would be great to get some hard data on the setup's advantages or disadvantages. | ||
| Tq_freak |
Abe co-authored a FEA text book!?!?!?! Thats Baddass!! I wonder how many other motorcycle manufactures have Published engineers working for them. No way around it, that dude is smart. Yet another reason why Buell Rocks and I would love to work in there engineering Dept. | ||
| Skully |
I experienced brake fade on the race track until I installed Nissin 804 pads. They fade no more. | ||
| Elgato |
Just a question? I first saw perimeter front brakes (ZTL) on road racers back in the 60's. If they are so superior in so many ways, why are the fastest bikes in the world (GP road racers) not using them? Just curious? (Message edited by elgato on July 19, 2007) | ||
| Starter |
Elgato, Most of the problems with the rim braking system was disc warping due to the system being fixed to the rim. Buell "Floats" the disc, hence solving the major reason for their initial decline. | ||
| Dtx |
Skully, Ditto! | ||
| M_singer |
I am impressed with the ZTL brake on my Firebolt and I am not impressed with Parker. | ||
| M1combat |
The other reason being that no one ever realized that with a (properly mounted) ZTL system you can also significantly reduce unsprung mass. See... The ZTL brake isn't exactly there for stopping. Sure... It does that as well as other brake setups (many say a bit better and I agree but that's not the point I'm trying to make) but it's real point is that it helps you GO  . There's a difference between the "ZTL System" and a perimeter mounted brake rotor. No one realized the benefits until Buell. Buell smartly patented the system. Sure... GP bikes could use it because they aren't production bikes but none of the manufacturers in GP racing are willing to say "OK Buell... You're right ". They'll get there though as soon as they can use the system on their production bikes. | ||
| Elgato |
I can't really believe that. In GP racing, they are pouring millions of dollars into these bikes, with mega millions at stake. If ZTL were such a great system, I assure you, egos would be set aside to win races. You're correct that the Patents have no bearing on GP (I'm an Attorney) but I can't help but think if they were that great, SOMEONE besides Buell would be using them? | ||
| Djkaplan |
"The other reason being that no one ever realized that with a (properly mounted) ZTL system you can also significantly reduce unsprung mass." I thought it was obvious. The whole point of the system is reduced unsprung mass. It's #1 on the rebuttal,too. |
