| Author | Message | ||
     Reepicheep |
Great picture Jens! He looks HUGE and fast in that picture. I just look fat  Thats a lot to stop.... | ||
| Anonymous |
You cannot compare the ZTL2 fitted to the XBRR to the stock brake. That is like comparing the MotoGP Ducati brakes to a road going 999. Far from it. The ZTL2 system is a race-proven system that is available for anyone racing an XB. The parts can be ordered from any Buell dealer. The retail price for the caliper with pads and an XBRR master cylinder (recommended) is $689. Both will work with a stock XB brake line, or you can put on the steel-braided line of your choice. The Brembo monoblock GP calipers that you and I can readily buy typically sell for $1800 apiece, and the racing master cylinders are expensive as well, pushing the cost of something that's probably less than what Ducati is using on their GP bikes to north of $4000. So you could fit six XBs with a works quality system for the cost of the top customer Brembo system. It's nice to know that Buell has a brake system on the shelf for high-powered bikes. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
When the "perfect" bike is built, no others will be built afterward. No Buell owner believes their bike is the alpha and omega of motorcycles. Most folks, but Americans in particular, respect and are excited about individuals who create a product with their own two hands from nothing and become successful at it. We love that story. We each secretly dream to have one similar. Very few EVER make that dream happen. The darker side of human nature is to turn on those who have become successful. At what point did Bill Gates become the focus of scorn? We love the underdog and hope for the fall of giants while kneeling at the altar of the status quo. Funny how the same person will praise the "little guy" while at the same time attacking the same "little guy" for fighting against convention. Weird animals people are. | ||
| Jackelfox |
Quoting Anony: "It's nice to know that Buell has a brake system on the shelf for high-powered bikes." Shouldnt comments like that be placed over there in the "Little Bird" thread.... ... well it excited me | ||
| Surveyor |
all i have to say is ask jeremy mcwilliams what he thinks of them and then go ask craig jones what he thinks of them. 2 professionals 2 different types of riding one uses the stock ztl and the other used the ztl2 last year and both are fans of them. I've got to admit that I haven't read this entire thread so excuse me if I repeat what has already been said. I was lucky enough to have lunch with JMcW at a recent track day and asked him about the rim mounted brake system on the XBRR and he said that he found it excellent but that others changed to a more traditional brake. I realise that comparing the XBRR brake with the standard road going system may not be valid but JMcW was comparing the XBRR system with other race options. I guess that there is an element of subjectivity about this issue and it appears that both brakes work well but that a riders preference may be related to the altered steering characteristics associated with the different systems...just my opinion.} | ||
| Spatten1 |
Motorcyclist seems to be using James Parker to counter Kevin Cameron at Cycle World. So far James Parker seems to not be impressed with any innovation other than his own. Not really anti-Buell, but not excited about anyone else's work. He's not writing with the color and background that Kevin Cameron uses. Cameron loves innovation and shows passion. Cameron has referenced Buell on a number of occasions. | ||
| 07xb12scg |
}I've said it before, I'll say it again. My Buell is not perfect; it has a bunch of flaws. It's patented technology may not be the best. I wasn't referring to you or anybody in particular. I don't care what anybody says. There are people who think Buells are the only "real" motorcycles whether they themselves, you, or anybody else admits it. As far as the rest of the garbage you typed... I'm not looking for pity or drama or anything. I was simply stating my opinion there and you jumped all over me. Who wants the drama again? | ||
| Buellshyter |
There are people who think Buells are the only "real" motorcycles whether they themselves, you, or anybody else admits it. I " jumped on you" because of inflammatory statements like the one above. Unless someone is suffering from some mental disorder, no one would make such a statement, nor; have I ever read such a statement ANYWHERE. As far as the rest of the garbage you typed... What garbage? Are you referring to my praise for Mr. Buell for having the courage and fortitude to make his dreams come true? Get back to me when you start your own successful motorcycle company. | ||
| 07xb12scg |
I didn't quote your post and I wasn't directing my comments at you. My comments of that last post were directed at Blake and his comments about me. And if those comments are inflammatory to you then you took them to heart. I can't help that. I'm not going to go search for a post proving that statement to you, but next time I see one I'll show you IF I remember. Don't hold your breath. These people may be few and far between, but they exist. I promise you that. I'm not saying this is a common issue among Buell owners. | ||
| Dbird29 |
  Did I miss any? | ||
| Skully |
Spatten1 - I agree and I think Kevin Cameron tends to be more factual. Buellshyter, 07xb12scg - please, let's not get personal. Most folks, but Americans in particular, respect and are excited about individuals who create a product with their own two hands from nothing and become successful at it. We love that story. We each secretly dream to have one similar. Very few EVER make that dream happen. Amen, Jeremy. Amen! | ||
| Blake |
"I don't care what anybody says. There are people who think Buells are the only "real" motorcycles whether they themselves, you, or anybody else admits it. ... These people may be few and far between, but they exist. I promise you that. I'm not saying this is a common issue among Buell owners." There are surely folks that fit that description for every single brand of motorcycle ever built. Are you out to cleanse the Buell owning/riding population of such rare unseen foolishness? Tilting at windmills ain't much of a hobby, especially when you cannot even find one. There are folks out there with HIV/AIDS that purposefully try to infect others too. Stopping or even just criticizing them would be a better investment of your time, yes? Don't ya just love when some poor fellow goes all indignant defending his indefensible and insulting comments by offering that "I was simply stating my opinion"? Which truth be told is rarely if ever the case. You know what I do notice, quite often too actually? I notice that there are some queer folks who cannot tolerate seeing any laudatory commentary concerning Buell motorcycles or Buell Motorcycle Corporation. It drives them to fits and emotional tirades that defy rationality. Buell Motorcycles, feel the passion, then come argue about it on BadWeB. LOL! I'd rather ride! | ||
| Blake |
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| Spatten1 |
LOL | ||
| Spatten1 |
The humor on this board is getting me through the work I'm doing tonight. Thanks guys. | ||
| Jens |
>Great picture Jens! He looks HUGE and fast in that picture.< Yes I like it too Reepicheep.... and that he brake with 2 fingers. That XB looks under him like a paddock bike... Configuration is Nissin XBRR Master, ZTL2 Caliper, Braking Disc and XBR Brakeline. Jens | ||
| Trojan |
Let me just be sure I understand you. You are contending that a reduction of unsprung mass amounting to pounds is not anything advantageous on account of no one else says it is? Is that what you are saying? No that is not what I said. Of course there is an advantage in reducing unsprung weight, but I would still rather have a brake I KNOW will stop me every lap or every corner on my favourite back road than lose a little in unsprung weight. Take a look at most modern sportsbike front wheel/brake assemblies and the difference in weight between them and the ZTL isn't huge. The biggest difference to the weight is that the Buell loses a caliper. Personally I would still rather have twin discs/calipers. The ZTL is remarkebly easy to overwhelm in a very short space of time, given a twisty road and some spirited riding. I have not found this to be the case on any of the current Jap/Euro sportsbikes, period. Far from it. The ZTL2 system is a race-proven system that is available for anyone racing an XB. The parts can be ordered from any Buell dealer. The retail price for the caliper with pads and an XBRR master cylinder (recommended) is $689. Both will work with a stock XB brake line, or you can put on the steel-braided line of your choice. The Brembo monoblock GP calipers that you and I can readily buy typically sell for $1800 apiece, and the racing master cylinders are expensive as well, pushing the cost of something that's probably less than what Ducati is using on their GP bikes to north of $4000. So you could fit six XBs with a works quality system for the cost of the top customer Brembo system. It's nice to know that Buell has a brake system on the shelf for high-powered bikes. Let me give you another example then. The R1 calipers and discs on our race bike offered much better braking performance and longevity than the stock XB brake ever did on the track. These cost US$40 from a scrap yard in North Carolina (including shipping to the UK). The rotors were GBP300 for the pair and pads were GBP18 per pair. These pads lasted almost half a season without any reduction in power and were developed for endurance racing by SBS. These are parts that anyone can buy cheaply and easily. I can buy spare pads at any shop or race circuit and in the unlikely event of a caliper problem can pick one up or even borrow one on track. The same cannot be said about either the ZTL1 or 2 here in the UK. In the latest MCN road test KTM SM950/Ducati Hypermotard/Buell XB12TT the Buell came last in braking performance. This is not a persoanl crusade, but a reflection of what is being said by lots of people including customers. Maybe Buell should listen a bit more to their buyers and less to their publicity. | ||
| Dongalonga |
"I don't care what anybody says. There are people who think Buells are the only "real" motorcycles whether they themselves, you, or anybody else admits it." Have you ever actually talked to any die hard fan of any brand of any product in the world...maybe Chevy for example?? (Message edited by dongalonga on June 13, 2007) | ||
| L_je |
quote, "In the latest MCN road test KTM SM950/Ducati Hypermotard/Buell XB12TT the Buell came last in braking performance. This is not a persoanl crusade, but a reflection of what is being said by lots of people including customers. Maybe Buell should listen a bit more to their buyers and less to their publicity." I'll go out on a short limb by suggesting that the difference in stopping distances are due to weight transfer under heavy breaking. The TT, having the shorter wheelbase, will be more adversely affected by weight transfer. Breaking from 60 mph, you can lock the front wheel with a ZTL brake; hence, the ZTL doesn't suffer from a lack of torque. Case in point, 60-0mph braking distances: XL1200C = 124 ft XB12X = 129 ft Does this imply that the conventional, single front rotor of the Harley is a better brake than the ZTL? [1] ______________________ I don't know how the bulk modulus of DOT 4 brake fluid is affected by temperature, but I suspect that it's not up to par with brake fluids formulated for racing. This however, will not have any affect on a short series of 60-0 brake tests. Serious hydraulic systems have serious cooling systems. I will suggest that the brake systems on superbikes are not serious hydraulic systems. D'oh! Let the flaming begin! __________________________ [1] if you answered yes to this question, please show your work | ||
| 07xb12scg |
Don't ya just love when some poor fellow goes all indignant defending his indefensible and insulting comments by offering that "I was simply stating my opinion"? Which truth be told is rarely if ever the case. I'd rather ride! I defended my comments and explained myself. I was simply stating my opinion and never personally attacked anybody. Either way I'll try to behave now. Love me or hate me - I really don't care. I'll say this...I love motorcycles, period. That's all that really matters. | ||
| Blake |
"In the latest MCN road test KTM SM950/Ducati Hypermotard/Buell XB12TT the Buell came last in braking performance. " Ah yes, the old stopping distance farce. Before the era when most any motorcycle, sport bikes especially, that you can buy offer the capability to lock up and/or endo the bike in a panic stop, that test had relevance and did provide a measure for braking system effectiveness. But these days it is no more than a test of wheelbase, and CG having very little if nothing to do with the relative capabilities of different brake systems and their performance. But you know this. Personal crusade? Maybe not. A jihad against ZTL? Maybe so. We just don't hear or see the issues you are so passionate about Matt. How is it that Buell racers in America and elsewhere are perfectly happy with their ZTL systems? I'm not sure what one might consider huge or significant weight reduction on a front suspension's unsprung mass. Where the repliracer manufacturers struggle to carve mere ounces from their front brake/wheel assemblies, it would seem huges and very significant to eliminate multiple pounds. Where you choose to see the weight reduction coming from is not important. The Buell ZTL has one larger caliper and one larger disk and a lighter wheel by benefit of its design. Why do you suppose those reportedly top shelf British Formula-1 engineers chose a ZTL type brake and wheel system for their next generation Superbike concept? | ||
| Trojan |
We just don't hear or see the issues you are so passionate about Matt. How is it that Buell racers in America and elsewhere are perfectly happy with their ZTL systems? Maybe people over there are more willing to put up with the stock system than we are in the UK, where we have tight twisty tracks and roads. I get phone calls and e-mails on an almost daily basis from people in the UK and overseas (quite a few from the USA too) wanting to improve their XB brakes because they are not happy with the performance. Owners of 2-3 year old bikes phone to buy Wave discs because the stock items are so warped they will not pass the DOT test we have here, and track day/fast road riders who just don't have confidence in the front brake. I know for a fact that most H-D dealers in the UK are also aware of these shortcomings, Whether they choose to pass customer comments on to the factory, of if they choose to listen I don't know. Why do you suppose those reportedly top shelf British Formula-1 engineers chose a ZTL type brake and wheel system for their next generation Superbike concept? The bike you talk of is nothing more than a CAD drawing at present, so we will see what eventually emerges from the factory, if anything. I see they are getting Ecosse to build if for them, who are hardly a high-tech speciallist. It remains to be seen if any of the new technology that these F1 gurus design will work in a bike scenario, and we all know what howling errors car designers have made of bikes in the past. Ah yes, the old stopping distance farce. Before the era when most any motorcycle, sport bikes especially, that you can buy offer the capability to lock up and/or endo the bike in a panic stop, that test had relevance and did provide a measure for braking system effectiveness So if a bike can stop in a shorter distance than the Buell it is nothing to do with brake performance but is all down to wheelbase and CofG? C'mon Blake, you know better than that. Stopping distance is a good measure of not only braking performance but also front suspension and stability. I would rather have a bike that stops in a shorter distance than one that doesn't. You shouldn't pick and choose which statistics and tests you don't like just because they don't suit the Buell system. I have no Jihad, and if the ZTL did what I wanted it to I wouldn't have an issue with it. It wasn't me that fried the XB brakes in 3 laps of Bruntingthorpe, but an independant journalist. His commenst couldn't be printed here or in his publication! | ||
| 07xb12scg |
It wasn't me that fried the XB brakes in 3 laps of Bruntingthorpe, but an independant journalist. His commenst couldn't be printed here or in his publication! Why couldn't his comments be printed? | ||
| Blake |
"You shouldn't pick and choose which statistics and tests you don't like just because they don't suit the Buell system." I'm not. I think you are. I understand the affect that wheelbase has on the ability to stop a motorcycle in the shortest distance possible, no matter what brakes are in play. The simple fact is that you could mount up any front brake system you want onto a Buell, and you won't realize any improvement to its smooth pavement stopping distance as reported by the type of test you referenced. Buell Nothing proves a point to folks better than actually demonstrating it. When brakes go out the way you describe it's almost always either due to moisture or air in the system. That is not an issue you can blame on the ZTL system. Neither is a warped rotor. That would be a quality issue that all disk brake systems are subject to. Further on the warped rotor issue. I've seen that reported a number of times then to find out that the symptomatic pulsating is not due to any rotor warpage, but the effect of deposits on the rotor. That is one criticism I find VERY valid. Buell You seem to think that your tracks are tighter and twistier than ours. Maybe some of our tracks are less rigorous on the brakes, but I can assure you that many are extremely rigorous on the brakes. So your Brit track/road theory is lacking I think. A track with a very high speed straight running into a low speed turn is about the most punishing to brakes, yes? All that kinetic energy that is proportional to the square of velocity must be absorbed by the brake system in the form of heat. Do you imagine that the folks in France taking all those Ducatis and Aprilias to school are upset about the performance of their ZTL-II brake systems? You know, the one that used the same exact brake rotor found on all Buell XBikes? "The ZTL is remarkebly easy to overwhelm in a very short space of time, given a twisty road and some spirited riding." That is utter baloney. If that were the case, the system would be entirely unacceptable on the track. It isn't. It wins races including the CCS/ASRA National Thunderbike championship. (Message edited by Blake on June 13, 2007) (Message edited by skully on June 13, 2007) | ||
| Spike |
Moisture or air may be a common cause of brake fade, but fresh fluid eliminates that cause. I ran into brake fade with fresh fluid and fresh pads at a beginner track day. Where does the blame fall in that case? | ||
| Blake |
So you put together a new dual disk system with used calipers for about the same price as a ZTL-II caliper? And the availability of conventional Suzuki brake components is better at race tracks and moto-retailers? Okay. I agree. What does that have to do with the real world benefits and performance of the ZTL system? Significantly less mass allows significantly better performance over bumpy uneven roads. Yes? Is that a goal not worth pursuing? I sure think so. Better to just follow convention and do like everyone else does? I sure don't think so. For a racer, sure use whatever works best for you. For a motorcycle designer producer, innovation is vital. Do you imagine that Buell is going to cease developing the ZTL system, that they imagine it is perfected and optimized in its current state? I sure don't. I'll be surprised if Buell When folks criticize the H-D based engine, they sometimes call it antiquated and old-fashioned, low tech, etc. I predict that it won't be long until folks are saying the same thing about conventional dual disk motorcycle front brake systems. (Message edited by skully on June 13, 2007) | ||
| Trojan |
I predict that it won't be long until folks are saying the same thing about conventional dual disk motorcycle front brake systems. I think we shall just have to agree to disagree on this subject However I predict that it won't be long before folks are saying' remember that strange front brake they used to fit to Buells?' If it worked better it would be great, but to meit is more about marketing and being seen to be 'different' than braking improvement. By the way, our whole front end (including forks, wheel, rotors and calipers) cost less than I can buy a ZTL caliper, spare pads and spare front wheel and get the Buell forks uprated here in England. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Can't remember which thread, but somebody offered me a pizza to measure rotor temperatures. I did my normal commute home, nothing special, back roads and highways, no interstate. Pulled the bike into the garage, and pointed the non contact IR thermometer at the brake rotor. 94.1 degrees, on a day at about 80 degrees ambient. Then I pointed the thermometer at the rim. Virtually the same temperature as the rotor (that says something right there...) Then I pointed the thermometer at the scorpion sync front tire. 104.3 degrees. I *love* pizza. I'll try and do some "entertaining" things on the way home today and stop now and then and take some additional temps, and see how hot I can get that rotor, and see how the rim follows. | ||
| Jackelfox |
if the ZTL were only a different approach that accomplishes the same results (which it completely does for my riding) the it is TOTALLY worth it to think completely outside the box and do just as well, is worth alot to me... some just call me contrary.... ... i dont agree | ||
| L_je |
Reepicheep, I'm the one who owes you the pizza. Though, I will say that I was hoping that you'd trail a friend who has a 600 or 1000cc bike with dual fronts, and get some temp info from their wheels to compare to the Buell. My bad for not putting more detail into the RFI. What's the highest temp your infrared thermometer can measure? [94F on the rotor? Dude, you ride like my grandma! But, nonetheless, I owe you a pizza. Now, if you want toppings other than cheese, you'll need to follow a friend with dual rotors and get the temp data for both front wheels!] |
