| Author | Message | ||
     Jaimec |
Matt, just a question... did those teams just slap a perimeter brake on a standard wheel assembly? Or did they design the whole front wheel around the idea of a perimeter mounted brake (i.e., lighter, thinner spokes, lighter, thinner hub, etc)? Just curious... | ||
| Blake |
So the statement that "what Buell did was make it work" is true, in that Buell made it work better on the whole than anything else previously offered. But hey, maybe you are one of the doubters who cannot see the advantage of reducing the front suspension's unsprung mass by so many pounds. I know you better, you understand the advantage of that. That you in your singular experience have personally not have been able to take advantage of the Buell ZTL brake/wheel and achieve an optimum setup/performance, does not render moot the significant benefits of the ZTL system. Did you see the front brake chosen by the Spirit ES1 engineers, formerly of Formula-1 fame, at Ecosse for their proposed British Superbike? | ||
| Court |
Blake beat me to the punch, but (I'm working from memory and Reg is lurking here and will correct me it need be) but Reg's observations were as Blake pointed out. . . the bulk of them flowing from the lack of decrease in mass. Buell went after the wheel and in more ways than some folks have figured out. I wrote, ad nauseaum, about it the other day. For the sake of bervity, Buell made the wheel MUCH (I don't think anyone's caught up yet) lighter and made the damn thing nearly impossible to make/maintain incorrectly. . . a huge accomplishment for the heretofor complex assortment of crud hanging on the axles of the world. Buell was in fact the first company to make a perimeter brake and EXCELLENT brake and to bring great value to the system. Elegant engineering in my eyes. . . By the way . . . the braking sysyem (I used their stuff on my KLR) is top drawer quality. They just controlled to few of the components and ended up in the "add a brake" business with their perimeter brakes. | ||
| Rocketman |
I can't for the life of me find the original USD fork info I'm looking for, but it goes way back, all be it crudely so, before the 1990's. The British first used a fork with a stiffer fixed upper tube with a bottom slider. The original concept was seen as the stiffest way, and they were right, but for whatever reasons, the telescopic fork became the fork of the modern era way before the more recent version of the USD fork became so. One thing I think I'm right in saying, and I'll stick my neck out here, Erik Buell knows this, his knowledge on the subject is that good. That comment isn't meant to reflect upon the Buell USD as I'm sure there are no real comparisons to be had. I'm merely stating USD has been tried before, though very few people realise this, but EB would be one of them. Now I'd be curious to learn if Erik Buell knows of this bike?  I've been looking for the reference to this bike for ages, and finally found it in a book an ex bought me 23 years ago nearly to the day. Yes she signed the inside cover "happy 23rd birthday.......", and it's my birthday next month! Not my 23rd one you fools! Do the math, lol. So I Googled the name, and there it was. The Ascot Pullin, designed / built by Cyril Pullin around 1928 was regarded at the time as the most advanced motorcycle manufactured in England. Horizontal opposed twin ohv 500cc. Pressed steel frame incorporating 4 gallon fuel tank. Front and rear wheels interchangeable. Instrument panel attached to the handlebars and a retractable windshield with wiper ! Rocket | ||
| Skully |
Sweet! | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I like the levers. Similar in simplicity of design of another of your countrymen.  | ||
| Trojan |
Of course the old Braking perimeter disk showed no appreciable advantage. It was extremely crude and failed to realize the significant mass reduction of the front wheel made possible by a perimeter-mounted rotor. It probably required a crude floating caliper, a band-aid to a front braking system which we all know is inferior compared to a fixed caliper with floating rotor, especially for sporting machines, let alone racing machines. The brake rotor also protruded out into harm's way outboard of the rim. Not a desirable trait at all, in fact quite undesirable. Are you saying that the crude, risk-laden exposed mounting of the Braking perimeter disk works as well as Buell's ZTL brake/wheel system? That's difficult to reconcile with the facts. Hi Blake, To say the Braking perimeter brake is extremely crude is not actually true is it? The wheel was a specially cast Marchesini item that probably weighs around the same or less than the stock XB item. The rotor is in the airflow more than the ZTL brake, but that also brings certain advantages with it. For instance, I have never heard of the Braking system suffering from overheating like the Buell version does. There were never any complaints regarding braking performance from the Braking system, in fact all the reports were that the twin perimater sytem was probably overbraked for street use. The main reason that it never caught on was simply that it was not beter than current solutions. There are various arguments for and against the ZTL brake, and my experience with both systems tells me that the stock ZTL still offers no significant advantages compared to modern state of the art radially mounted calipers. Take alook at pretty much every jap sportsbike front brake system. These are capable of being used on the street ofr the track straight from the box with no modifications at all. I know lots of racers using bog standard brakes on ther race bikes quite happily. The bUell brake however needs modifying to work well in track situations to counter heat build up and serious brake fade. If you have to fit extra air scoops or even bigger calipers to get it to work on track then the brake peformance must be marginal to start with surely? We once used up a set of ZTL brake pads in a single 10 lap race, at the end of which they were so hot that the pad material just crumbled off the backing plate. Not a problem I have ever experienced with the R1 brakes, in fact a set of SBS pads for these calipers lasted nearly half the season with no fall off in peformance. Then there are other more practical advantages to using 'traditional' twin disc setups, such as easy (and cheap)availability of spare wheels, rotors, pads etc when racing. For Buell to tout the main advantage of the system as weight reduction is little disengenuous, considering that the XB is saddled with a 98kg engine. If you want to lose weight there are some very obvious places to start before you tackle brakes don't you think? (and yes I am aware of sprung vs unsprung weight). If you compare pure braking peformance of the single ZTL brake against pretty much any of the other stock sportsbike systems on the market then the Buell brake is without doubt the weakest of the lot. Simple arithmatic will tell you that a single 6 piston caliper cannot possibly give the same braking force or heat dispersal as a pair of 4 piston calipers. The perimeter disc gives around the same swept braking area as 1.5 320mm discs, so even the braking surface is reduced compared to other types of brake. The market segment most obsessed with weight reduction and reducing unsprung weight is probably the burgeoning Supermot sector. If the perimater disc had major advantages over the traditional braking systems then you can bet your bottom dollar that the manufacturers would be installing them. Apart from TM this has not been the case, and all the major motorcycle and brake manufacturers are now fitting single radially mounted monbloc calipers to their high end supermoto bikes. This of course means that Honda,Yamaha, Kawasaki, Suzuki, KTM, Husqvarna, Husaberg, Brembo etc are all wrong but Buell is right? I find it a little strange that I NEVER have calls from other sportsbike owners complaining of weak front brakes, warped rotors, overheating pads etc, but get them almost daily from Buell owners. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Trojan, Could the complaints of "weak front brakes, warped rotors, overheating pads, etc." be related to the stock pads rather than the braking design? Many here have switched to EBC/Lyndall's (probably at your recommendations) and eliminated all of the described problems. | ||
| Jaimec |
I would've SWORN I posted this yesterday but it seems to have been removed and I can't for the life of me imagine why: I remember "Anonymous" commenting awhile ago that the ZTL brake wasn't supposed to be BETTER than a traditional brake setup... it was supposed to be JUST AS GOOD as a traditional brake setup, but with a LOT less unsprung weight. Hmmmm... I've reread that paragraph a few times and I don't see anything "politically incorrect" about it so I hope it "sticks" this time... | ||
| Anonymous |
If you compare pure braking peformance of the single ZTL brake against pretty much any of the other stock sportsbike systems on the market then the Buell brake is without doubt the weakest of the lot. Simple arithmatic will tell you that a single 6 piston caliper cannot possibly give the same braking force or heat dispersal as a pair of 4 piston calipers. Of course, not everyone solves the same equation when they're doing simple arithmetic  With roughly similar lever effort to competitive bikes, the ZTL or ZTL2 systems provide plenty of power to brake an XB or XBRR hard enough to lift the rear wheel; there is no reason to provide braking power beyond what is usable or controllable. But there is every reason to keep unsprung weight low, and that is the main advantage of the ZTL system. A light front wheel and brake package will track bumps during braking better than a heavy one. ZTL isn't called a system for nothing -- the wheel, disc, caliper, and brake lines combined of an XB are lighter than all but dual disc systems with carbon discs and ultra-expensive wheels. (Use the same material technology on a ZTL system, and it would be lighter yet.) The most telling comparison of the ZTL system to the conventional is one that's yet to be performed by a magazine: a brake test over a choppy surface. In that test, an XB will outperform current Japanese liter bikes. | ||
| Court |
>>>>there is no reason to provide braking power beyond what is usable or controllable. While that's an accurate statement standing on it's own. . . let me hasten to point out that our bold and brave leader Mr. Buell has gone to this "excess acceleration // pavement interface" and "excess braking // pavement interface" on our behalf in the development of these dandy bikes. I did a simple mathematical calculation today and worked out the "what if, since I've been riding Buells. . . the bikes had lost one pound for each pound I gained?" scenario. Then I solved the equation for the Buell that weight -6 pounds, got depressed and went back to work. | ||
| Reepicheep |
That'd be a really interesting test. It assumes that there is a crossover point in "choppyness" where the shorter wheelbase (stoppie prone) XB disadvantage is overcome by the "stick to asphalt" advantages of the low unsprung weight ZTL system. That would be an easy independent test as well... at what point in "surface choppyness" can a litre bike no longer stoppie? | ||
| Spatten1 |
an XB will outperform current Japanese liter bikes Would that be the same for 600s? | ||
| L_je |
It doesn't have to be a stoppie, per se. What about breaking while going into a corner over a "rough" surface? A heavier wheel could cause some problems there. ZTL isn't about making the bike lighter, it's about making the front wheel lighter. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that some of the handling characteristics that make Buells work well can only work with lower HP engines. For example, the short wheelbase. Racers extend the wheelbase for stability when they increase HP. The brakes would be another example. Faster and heavier performance bikes need beefier brakes that disapate more heat. Just a thought. The XB's might not be what they are with stronger engines. | ||
| Spike |
Here's my only gripe with that though- many XB owners have run into brake fade issues with the stock ZTL setup. I've never had fade on the street other than when bedding in new pads, but on the track I have had fade issues. With fresh brake fluid and fresh LRB Gold pads I was running into brake fade on VIR South (~1.6 miles) in the beginner class. I never ran out of brakes or had to run off course, but at the end of each session the lever would start to go soft and I would start losing feedback. It was enough to have be re-bleeding the brakes between sessions. It wasn't bad enough to really be an issue, but again I was at the beginner pace. I can't help but wonder how it would have turned out if I was lapping at a faster pace. | ||
| Jaimec |
Spike: I guess that's why they're "Street Bikes" and the "Racing Bike" (the XBRR) has an eight piston caliper? | ||
| Trojan |
With roughly similar lever effort to competitive bikes, the ZTL or ZTL2 systems provide plenty of power to brake an XB or XBRR hard enough to lift the rear wheel; I know that thew brake is powerful enough for stoppies etc, but how many stoppies will it do before the brakes fade? not many is the answer. My main concern has always been that the performance of the brake 'goes off' markedly when it gets hot, and it is extremely easy to overwork the brake on a twisty road given some spirited riding. This may not be such a problem on the straight roads of the USA, but take one out on the Yorkshire Moors or into Scotland, let alone on track, and you will soon have the stock brakes begging for mercy. The most telling comparison of the ZTL system to the conventional is one that's yet to be performed by a magazine: a brake test over a choppy surface. In that test, an XB will outperform current Japanese liter bikes. I was at a Performance Bikes magazine test last year when they managed to complete just three laps of Bruntingthorpe proving ground on a stock XB12 before the brakes cried enough and the lever came right back to the bar. Bruntingthorpe is a bumpy test track used by the UK Auto industry and is a very good test of braking and handling. It has very choppy braking areas caused by heavy braking by cars and trucks, and will show up any weakness in the braking of any vehicle. The Buell was certainly no better on the brakes than any of the other bikes present and stopping distances were actually worse. At the same test no other bike had any brake problems whatsoever (including the KTM Superduke, Ducati Multistrada, Honda Fireblade and our own Buell race bike fitted with R1 front stoppers). I am not against the ZTL front brake just because I don't like the look of it, and have carried out more research than most Buell owners trying to get it to perform to the same level as twin discs on a consistent and reliable basis, so have not just made an uninformed opinion on the matter. I have tried different make and grades of pads, different fluid and different master cylinders, but when I can get better performance from a set of R1 calipers then that is what I will choose to use. Interestingly, also at Bruntinthorpe the same day was Buell UK's marketing boss, and I would have thought that he would have taken the opportunity to come over and speak to the journalists present, but we didn't see him all day. This was commented upon by a number of the journo's present. | ||
| Court |
I've reread this post and after careful consideration I've decided to not be part of the problem. I am removing the brakes from my bikes. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa'------- THUNK! | ||
| Jens |
http://www.hillbilly-motors.com/html/fischereihafe nrennen_2007_bild24.html Picture shows Mike Funke @ Fishtownraces 2007 with more than 100 KG lifeweight on a this tricky and extra brakeheating course racing the ZTL2. His comment; "One of the best brakes I ever raced" Mike Funke, Journalist, PS Motorcycle Magazin, more than 30 years on the racetrack... No more words.... Jens | ||
| Firebolt020283 |
all i have to say is ask jeremy mcwilliams what he thinks of them and then go ask craig jones what he thinks of them. 2 professionals 2 different types of riding one uses the stock ztl and the other used the ztl2 last year and both are fans of them. Oh yea and one is in the Guenness book of world records because of with the help of the ztl brake system. | ||
| Trojan |
You cannot compare the ZTL2 fitted to the XBRR to the stock brake. That is like comparing the MotoGP Ducati brakes to a road going 999. The World stoppie record actually has very little to do with braking performance at all, and owes a lot more to balance than brakes. Neither Craig Jones nor JW have had to use the stock ZTL brake in anger on a twisty road or track, so neither are really qualified to comment on it are they? I just tell it how I found it. You can believe whatever you like. Personally I doubt if we will see any other manufacturers jumping on the perimeter brake bandwagon any time soon, and it would not surprise me at all to see Buell abandon it in the future. | ||
| 07xb12scg |
Oh yea and one is in the Guenness book of world records because of with the help of the ztl brake system. That has much more to do with rider skill than the performance of the bike! He could have broken that record on any Jap bike if he chose to do so. Trojan: I'm glad you're telling it like it is. Since you're a sponsor you can get away with a lot more on this site than I ever could, especially since some people already have their eyes on me. Some people just cannot admit that their Buell is not perfect, that it does have flaws, and that its patented technology may not be the best. | ||
| Blake |
Jens, Jeremy McWilliam honest comments support your report 100%; Jeremy stated to me that "The (XBRR ZTL-II) braking performance is closer to that of carbon disk MotoGP setups than the more conventional steel systems run on World Superbikes. (The XBRR ZTL-II brake) is more precise and responsive than stainless steel dual disk World Superbike brakes." Matt, the Braking version tested in racing was a dual disk setup? That would weigh more than double the Buell ZTL system. Let me just be sure I understand you. You are contending that a reduction of unsprung mass amounting to pounds is not anything advantageous on account of no one else says it is? Is that what you are saying? Care to place a wager on that? I remember folks saying the same exact thing about the underslung muffler. That was some years back. Now we see underslung mufflers popping up all over the place and those people are being very quiet about their former naysaying. I've seen the Braking wheels that they supply with their perimeter brake setup. It is obvious that those wheels are not at all optimized to take advantage of the absence of torsion in the hub and spokes. They are no different than any other high end forged aluminum wheels. I doubt very much that they are lighter than the stock XB wheels. Can you imagine how light the Buell front ZTL wheel could be made if it were forged high strength aluminum alloy instead of the relatively weak and geometrically imprecise cast aluminum alloy? Stay tuned. I'm betting we'll see such an advancement at some point in Buell's future. You don't do much reading of the board here if you imagine that all roads in America are straight. You need to come for a visit and meet me in California, Oregon, Washington, Colorado, Utah, Arkansas, N. Carolina, Virginia, New Hampshire, S. Dakota, Texas, Pennsylvania, New Mexico, etc, etc, etc... We have these two major mountain ranges and a number of secondary ones. They make for some very challenging twisty riding, certainly on par with anywhere else in the world. We also have plenty of race tracks. It's odd to me that you suffered so much braking trouble when Thunderbike racers over here, even on the high speed tracks, punishing braking circuits, have no serious issues with their Buell ZTL brakes. How do you explain that Matt? I cannot. | ||
| Josh_cox |
The stock ZTL system gets a lot better with a master cylinder, and brake pad change. Most people will only need more track oriented pads (Nissin 804). Everyone else upgrades their brakes too. You (anyone) would be a fool to think people run stock brakes racing. Most have converted to at least different fluid, -2 lines, and some upgraded pad setup. There are a lot of guys running different master cylinders and rotors also. Very few take the plunge for new calipers. Stock ZTL brakes are close in performance to most other stock brakes. They do give good feedback, but are prone to overheating with a lot of abuse. You will have similar problems with most other setups as well though. Josh | ||
| Court |
Pssssssssssssssssst . . Blake. . you forgot to mention NYC streets | ||
| Blake |
"Some people just cannot admit that their Buell is not perfect, that it does have flaws, and that its patented technology may not be the best." I've said it before, I'll say it again. My Buell is not perfect; it has a bunch of flaws. It's patented technology may not be the best. I will add that the Buell ZTL brake/wheel system offers very significant benefits compared to conventional dual disk sport bike braking systems. If you really prefer to gossip about "people", I suggest you switch to www.IwannaGossip.com. I guarantee you that Mr Purdy is afforded no more or no less leeway concerning his participation on BadWeB than anyone else here. Matt is a polite person and offers his views with respect and takes a lot of time to respond to just about every counterpoint. I may not agree with his position concerning the ZTL system, but that has never ever been justification for any kind of custodial intervention. Some folks just love to invent as much drama as they can imagine if it suits their quest for pity/attention. I'll say it again to such whiners, go create your own website forum and do with it whatever you like. Neither I nor any other BadWeB custodians will show up on your discussion board whining to you or the public in general about it; in fact no one of character will come whining to you about it. Me? I'm planning to go the way of the ZTL and get rid of a bunch of excess mass. Ride, lean, smile, live, | ||
| Blake |
So Matt, you bring up the single conventional disk systems of the Supermotards. Would those have more or less stopping power than the stock Buell ZTL? Would they tend to suffer more or less wear and develop more or less heat? Would a reduced volume ZTL disk (larger ID) with a four pot caliper allow for an unsprung mass significantly less than that of a conventional single disk setup? Answer: Yes it would. Would it provide equal or better braking performance? Answer: Yes it would. What was your point wrt the supermotard brakes again?   | ||
| Buellshyter |
..... especially since some people already have their eyes on me Understatement of the year. You are almost as bad as Rocket in his ability to provoke a response. Some people just cannot admit that their Buell is not perfect, that it does have flaws, and that its patented technology may not be the best I don't recall ever reading anyone posting that the Buell was the end-all of motorcycles. Personally, I like my Buell because it's different. It's cool that some guy had the balls and the vision to chase his dreams, in his garage no less, no matter what the personal risk. Erik Buell is a freakin genius in my book. Engineering and building a motorcycle is only part of the equation and probably the lesser part of it. The ability to take that vision and make others believe in it and give their money to you and then to prudently apply those funds to turn a profit is what sets apart people like Mr. Buell, Steve Jobs and other self-made men from ya-hoo's building choppers in their garage. The XB is not the best motorcycle in the world but it's probably the best sportbike that could be built from the motor Buell had to work with. I think some of you fail to see the big picture. It's not just about building the best bike in the world it's about how you utilize the resources you have on hand and in that regard I say Buell is a winner, regardless of the pros and cons of the front brake. | ||
| Court |
You nailed it. I have said, on a number of occasions, that designing and building motorcycles is the easiest part of Erik's day. By the way, that was a very nicely worded and dangerously accurate paragraph. Some folks should read it slowly and carefully. Court |
