| Author | Message | ||
     Tleighbell |
This was one of the few bikes I thought might tempt me off my XB12S. Test rode one today. Of course it was a short ride, no time to really get to see what it could do but there is no way I would give up the Buell for this. Long wheelbase so it just doesn't have that quick handling. Definitely faster, less low down grunt but lots more revs. Felt like an SV 650 on steroids. Super brakes. Apart from the power is didn't seem that interesting and involving a ride compared to the Buell. Anyhone else? | ||
| Typeone |
tweak a little here and there and wow, me wants.. .  | ||
| Jaimec |
If they released that bike in the States at the same time they released it in Europe, I'd be riding one of those. However, they didn't and I bought a new Lightning Long at the end of 2005 with no regrets. Saved about $4,000 too, if I'm not mistaken... | ||
| Cityxslicker |
nice ride, but I am more inclined to the 950SM, it is more my offroad style. STill waiting for the Buell Dirt bike. | ||
| Tleighbell |
I forgot to add that I had trouble understanding the general lack of enthusiasm in the bike press (with a few exceptions) for the XB when the KTM draws unanimous raves. The KTM is great but so is the XB, in a similar way. The XB does feel a little more vintage, which I happen to like. | ||
| Cgocifer |
Super Duke = Boring! I was expecting so much more when I first heard the rumors. Just doesn't do anything for me. The swing arm looks totally wimpy, the proportions aren't right (skinny rear, bulky tank), it just doesn't look tough. Looks like it is trying too hard to look modern. I agree with Tleighbell, I'm not sure why the reviews were so lopsided. I guess the press just has a bad taste for Buells (from the early days), and won't rethink their preconceived notions. All they think about is the "ancient lump of an engine" that they all mention at one time or another. | ||
| Trojan |
I forgot to add that I had trouble understanding the general lack of enthusiasm in the bike press (with a few exceptions) for the XB when the KTM draws unanimous raves. The KTM is great but so is the XB, in a similar way. The XB does feel a little more vintage, which I happen to like. Simple really. The press are interested in performance above all else, and the KTM has that in spades, whereas the XB is sadly lacking and falling behind the opposition these days when it comes to oomph. The XB platform is now five years old, and the magazines have done all the stuff about fuel in the frame, ZTL brakes etc by now, so there is nothing new to enthuse about on the XB. Dressing it up in a different set of plastics isn't enough to impress journalists who ride bikes for a living. The handling may be superb, but if everyone can breeze past on the straights it is a little pointless to only have that one weapon in your arsenal. Then factor in the KTM's superb build quality and top drawer components and the XB starts to look not only dated but also slightly cheap in comparison. I recently spent a day with one of the UK's top freelance bike journalists, and we spent a lot of time talking about various bikes. He is a self confessed Buell fan, and covered the FX races at Daytona when the XBRR first came out, has interviewed Erik and spent 2 weeks on a hired XB at Daytona, so has no axe to grind against Buell. His opinion, and one that is sadly shared by lots of people that I speak to, is that the XB has failed to move on and improve over the years, and suffers from some bad finishing touches more than anything else. Mufflers and engine bolts that corrode at the first sniff of a British winter, cheap looking headlight units and a few other foibles. I have always defended Buell to the hilt, but on these points I had no argument to give him. In the UK there is not a huge difference in price between the XB and the new Superduke (or any of the other 'super' naked machines), and in fact brand new unregistered 06 Superdukes can be bought for almost £1000 (US$2000) less than a new XB12R or XB12S. KTM are also seen as a very young, dynamic and exciting company, and it seems that everything they get involved in they win (except MotoGP of course). Remember, the Superduke is their first 'proper' road bike! When the press get invited to a KTM launch they throw some major parties and have a lot of fun, both on and off the bikes, so of course they come away feeling good about the bikes and the company. Buell need a serious update for the XB this year, with a serious performance upgrade to go with it, if they are to continue to compete with the world's best in this market sector. I would much rather buy and ride a Buell than any other brand, but like most people I still want value for money compared to the opposition, and at present Buell are falling behind. | ||
| Spatten1 |
I would much rather buy and ride a Buell than any other brand, but like most people I still want value for money compared to the opposition, and at present Buell are falling behind. Exactly how I feel. A current Buell should sell for closer to $8k or $9k based on performance, which is what most sportbikers measure things by. If you don't believe that is true, look at resale values, which are an objective measure of the market's value, for people too practical or budget constrained to buy new. As far as beating on the KTM's looks: Who gives a shit, it works. If you want looks get a chopper, then you will look really cool. If you want to haul ass get a KTM and quit worrying about your image. If you are more concerned with a combination sporty handling, good looks, and a soulfull engine, GET A BUELL. The Buell is a great package, my first choice, but it is still too far down on performance and you can't expect a bike magazine to pretend it's not. Magazines don't review soul. (Message edited by spatten1 on May 02, 2007) | ||
| Spike |
Here's the thing the kills me though- the SuperDuke doesn't have it in spades. Dyno charts for new SuperDukes are showing 105 to 115rwhp in stock trim and about 120rwhp with ~$2500 Akras and fueling. That's 15-20hp up from an XB12, but it's 5-20hp down from an RC51. It's a nice motor, but it's outpowered by most of the new liter twins. The bike itself is exciting because it's such a great overall package and it's KTM's first real streetbike, but in terms of performance alone it doesn't seem to offer anything better than what the Tuono offered back in '02. | ||
| Dutchboy |
I gotta comment on the performance aspect too. At. What. Point. Is? Enough? Enough? My crappy little XB9SX, with it's "lump" of an engine has performance far beyond my capabilities as a rider. What's the point of getting another bike that exceeds my skills by even more? I think the motorcycle press misses the whole point of bikes like ours. I have two bikes based on the Harley-Davidson "lump" - a Sportster and my CityX. Both bikes get me to work and back, around on the weekends, and fit a family member on the back while getting around 50mpg and needing little care besides cleaning, oil, filter and tire changes, and the occasional control cable/primary chain adjustment. And they're both a snot-load of fun at speeds that are far less likely to put me in jail or the hospital. If my idea of fun was a sore neck and wrists and listening to my crotch rocket scream at 12K RPM going 35MPH and waiting for my chance to go 150MPH as soon as the road opens up, then maybe I'd focus more on "performance". If my idea of a good way to spend my money was to spend it on insurance, sprockets, chains and valve adjustments maybe I'd care more about "performance". As it is, I'm sick of every car or bike review I read including the reviewer's wish that it had more power. If "performance" is so important, then why do 300,000 people buy Harley-Davidsons every year? Enough ranting. Just had to get that off my chest. I feel much better now | ||
| Spatten1 |
If "performance" is so important, then why do 300,000 people buy Harley-Davidsons every year? Different market altogether. Buells are sportbikes. Honda and Kawi sell plenty of cruisers too. We are talking about the SuperDuke and those that might be interested in it: sport riders. Also, just because it is more bike than you can handle, does not mean that applies to the rest of us. Coming from a HD the Buell probably feels lightning fast. However, coming from the outside world it seems quite mild on power. | ||
| Cgocifer |
"If you are more concerned with a combination sporty handling, good looks, and a soulfull engine, GET A BUELL." Uh, got one just for those reasons. Don't want just a looker and don't want just a goer. I want looks, sound, performance, and uniqueness. To me, cars and motorcycles are like pieces of moving art. Mechanical things of beauty. If I wanted all out performance, then I'd buy an ugly ZX14, or your typical Gixxer. I would buy and plan on buying a chopper too some day when funds allow. It will be another art exhibit in my growing art collection of automobiles and motorcycles. I like to look at them just as much as I like to experience their levels of performance capabilities. The Buell is a unique motorcycle and though it is 5 years old, it still has enough uniqueness to stand out in a crowd of colorful graphic plastered repli-racers. And that, my fellow enthusiasts is good enough for me. P.S. Coming from an R6, the Buell has never felt slow to me. Top speed is definitely noticeable, but the Buell actually feels quicker due to the torque pulling at my arm sockets. I've never felt disappointed with this very fun and interesting motorcycle. Maybe if I was coming from a 1000 in-line 4, I would notice the dramatic power loss, but I don't need such radical power in a street bike. Ciao | ||
| Dutchboy |
Just to be clear, I've owned faster bikes than the Buell. They sucked for commuting. They sucked for distance riding. They sucked for two-up riding. These are the things I do on my bikes. I also would rather spend my money on gas than insurance and high maintenance. I'm also a fairly competent rider who's been logging 1,000 miles / month for years. When I say the Buell's performance exceeds my capabilities I'm not saying the bike overwhelms me - I am admitting that I'm not willing to accept the personal risks that trying to ride this bike to the edge of its performance envelope on the street bring. We all have to ride our own ride - I'm not criticizing anyone who rides faster or slower than me - but the Buell has more than enough performance for my riding. My main point is that performance is only part of the equation, and that magazine reviewers need to be looking at the full package. I think it shows a lack of imagination on their part when they use track capabilities as their primary yardstick for assessing a motorcycle. I think Cgocifer said it well "Don't want just a looker and don't want just a goer. I want looks, sound, performance, and uniqueness.". I think the Buell is an excellent balance of these qualities - and I would add low maintenance and comfort as further ones. The Buell is distinctive, practical, and performs as well as most people need for street riding. If performance was my only yardstick I'd be on an IL4 liter bike, or maybe a ZX-14, or still riding a Triumph Triple. But I'm willing to give up performance I won't use anyway if it means I spend less on gas, maintenance and insurance AND get a comfortable riding position that doesn't have me squirming 20 minutes into a ride. I don't think the Buell can compete based purely on performance. To try to do so is a losing game. Only the Japanese manufacturers make money at this game. It's a slippery slope that diverts engineering resources away from improving the riding experience and into squeaking out levels of performance that are only useful at the track to a very small set of riders who have the skill and courage to exercise them. Where the Buell can compete is based on the fact that it is a competent, distinctive motorcycle that is a pure joy to ride. Based on the coverage I've seen Buell get with the Ss, the CityX, the Ulysses and the TT, I think some journalists are finally getting this. The performance thing irks me because throughout my entire adult life I've read countless reviews of cars and bikes where the reviewers make their final judgments on the vehicle based on its track capabilities. I don't spend my life on the track riding free bikes; I spend my life riding to work and back, to the store, through the countryside and sometimes down the slab to some other city on bikes I have to pay for. I judge vehicles based on how they meet my real-world needs. I think lots of riders are better served when they do the same. I think lots of journalists take the easy way out by focusing too much on performance, which is only one aspect of a motorcycle. I think that Buell needs to play to its strengths, and work on its weaknesses (e.g. heat absorbed, retained and radiated by the frame) and not throw away their engineering resources playing the performance game. Their bikes have enough performance to be plenty entertaining | ||
| Ejiii |
I have had a lot of great bikes in the past as many of you have had. From Triumphs, RD/RZ 350's, CB750, CBR600 F3, CBR929 to a super trick KTM Duke II. Fantastic classic stuff but I must say my XB9SX is really one of the best I have owned for all the reasons everyone has mentioned. Over the years I have become a contrarian, if everyone is flocking to 1000cc appliances I know I need to get something else. When I ride with my buddies it's a totally mixed bag of bikes, all great, with the only Buell (mine) being the "slowest". Where the rubber meets the road the Buell hangs in there 100% and I don't feel out gunned at all. When we stop it's the Buell that gets the attention! Screw the magazines, we are all in the right place! | ||
| Diablobrian |
I'm still hoping that July will be the dawn of a new (performance wise) era in Buell history. It's time for Erik and the Elves to break the rules again and build what no one expects. | ||
| Trojan |
Dyno charts for new SuperDukes are showing 105 to 115rwhp in stock trim and about 120rwhp with ~$2500 Akras and fueling. That's 15-20hp up from an XB12, but it's 5-20hp down from an RC51. It's a nice motor, but it's outpowered by most of the new liter twins. The Superduke makes around 105 at the rear wheel, whereas the Buell XB12 in stock form will make around 85 tops at the wheel. It isn't just about the amount of power though, but the way the power is delivered and the overall package. Last year in the UK the Sound of Thunder championship was won by a very lightly modified Superduke (exhausts and ECU mods only), racing against some very modified RC51's, Ducati 999's, Aprilia RSV Factory etc. The rider was superb, but the bike shocked pretty much everyone with it's overall performance. This year at the first round of the UK KTM Superduke battle, held at Silverstone as a support race to British Superbikes, the KTMs (with very limited mods allowed) were lapping in the 1.36 bracket compared to the best of the Superstock bikes in 1.28. This was using 06 model 'Dukes too. My main point is that performance is only part of the equation, and that magazine reviewers need to be looking at the full package. I think it shows a lack of imagination on their part when they use track capabilities as their primary yardstick for assessing a motorcycle. If you read most of the 'serious' UK magazine tests of the KTM then you'll see performance is only part of what impresses the testers. They are also very vocal about build quality, impressive spec of stock components, dealer backup and very importantly - KTM customer service and ethos. I'm not saying that everyone should rush out and buy one, and it would be a boring world if we all liked the same things. What I am saying is that the KTM and the XB (and other naked sportsbikes) are all competing for the same customers, and in our market at least at around the same price point too. If Buell are to continue to attract customers then they need to update the XB to bring it into line with the KTM, Aprilia Tuono, Monster S4RS, Benelli TNT, Speed Triple etc in terms of quality, performance and value for money. | ||
| Dano_12s |
Well said Dutchboy+Trojan,Lets hope July will be the dawn of a new ERA=fingers crossed. | ||
| Dutchboy |
"They are also very vocal about build quality, impressive spec of stock components, dealer backup and very importantly - KTM customer service and ethos" It's been a while since I stopped by Barnes & Noble and picked up any UK bike mags - guess I should :-) Those are things worth being vocal about and areas where Buell needs to focus to compete. I'm 20 miles from the local BMW/Ducati/KTM/Triumph/Vespa dealer (they just started carrying KTM, so I don't know that they have the knowledge and experience to effectively back them yet) and 100+ miles from the closest Buell dealer. It's depressing that much of Buell's competition can be sold and serviced a half hour from my house but I have to travel almost two hours one way to get my Buell taken care of. I just hope Buell doesn't lose things that make it desirable to me. I've experienced the joys of paying for Ducati valve adjustments, new chain and sprockets and tires and waiting for parts that apparently are delivered from Europe by raft - I would have to think very hard before buying any bike that requires either tearing off half the engine or trusting a mechanic to do so just for routine maintenance. I like that no one has to half dismantle my current bikes to tinker with valve systems that add value on the track, but just cost me more money on the street. I like the way my Buell delivers power and fuel economy, unlike so many IL4 that have worse fuel economy than my wife's car. I like that I can sit upright and see traffic without holding my head at an uncomfortable angle. I like that I can sit upright and look like I'm going slower (I think lots of people see you in sportbike crouch and mentally add 15+ mph to your speed - which suck if those people are police...) There are areas where our bikes can improve, and if performance is needed to compete, so be it, but I think that the Rossi wannabes are going to go full-on sportbike anyway so why waste money chasing a customer segment that's never going to be captured? Buell's sweet spot is people who want something distinctive, fun and low hassle - and I hope they don't lose sight of this by allocating too much of their corporate or engineering resources (a finite thing) chasing performance when the other items mentioned in this thread might bring them more success in the marketplace. | ||
| Redponcho |
I actually stopped by my local shop yesterday. They just got in a Super Duke. It looked like a fun bike to ride. I still love my XB but I would like to give it a spin. However they did have a new 450 SM. That bike has fun written all over it. | ||
| Spike |
Unless the Buells are using different tuning in the UK I don't see how you can say 85hp is the tops for an XB12. The very first XB12 dyno posted to Badweb was just a hair under 90hp. My personal XB12 put 89.6hp to the wheel with only 1000 miles on it. We've seen numerous XB12s put 90hp or better to the rear wheel. From what I've seen 85hp is closer to the bottom of the XB12s, not the tops. | ||
| Jaimec |
I've checked multiple American cycle magazines that dyno their test bikes. The first year XB12s were rated at 92 hp at the rear wheel. That was the highest that was EVER recorded. Every succeeding year that number was lower. The last time I saw a test (back in February timeframe) it was 81 hp for an XB12Ss (reference Motorcycle Consumer News). I even posted a question about that here and never got a satisfactory answer. Since the day the XB12 models were introduced, Buell has consistently claimed 103bhp, but every year the number at the rear wheel is less than the preceding year. Why?? | ||
| Freezerburn |
The rice gnomes steel horsepower right from the factory unbeknownst to the Buell elves. | ||
| Jaimec |
Wow! And I thought it would have something to do with Global Warming... | ||
| Diablobrian |
Dyno results can vary widely from one to another. You cannot compare numbers from different dynos. The best you can do is compare the shapes of the torque and HP curves. I've seen the same bike on 2 dynos on successive days have differences of 11hp Same bike, similar atmospheric conditions, same fuel etc. Peak values from the dyno runs are fairly arbitrary for comparison purposes if not run on the same dyno, by the same tech. Otherwise it's all bluster and posturing in pursuit of bigger numbers. Your opinion may be different, and that's okay, I'm just not buying it  | ||
| Spike |
I'd attribute any evidence of that to variances in dynos before I concluded that the bikes were dropping in power. In fact, motorcycle.com is showing XB12 power going the opposite direction over the years. Compare these dyno charts from their tests in December '04 and August '06, respectively. 2004 XB12S:  2007 XB12Ss:  | ||
| Anonymous |
"92 was the highest ever recorded . . ." Actually, Sport Rider once had an XB12 at right around 97 hp. Dynos vary. | ||
| Cgocifer |
Dynos vary, atmospheric conditions vary, lots of things affect the dyno results. What Buell needs to do is stop charging so much money for their bikes. The engine is very simple and uses antiquated technology as we're all aware. Yes, it has some trick features, but none that should cost so much for what you get. Don't get me wrong, I love my bike, but I bought it used with 1200 miles on it for 6300 bucks at someone else's depreciation loss. They're minimalistic bikes with few bells and whistles, there's no reason they should sticker for nearly 11 grand. 8 maybe. | ||
| Buellshyter |
there's no reason they should sticker for nearly 11 grand. 8 maybe. I guess in addition to being a world class racer you're also a CFO. | ||
| Spike |
Now the thread is going completely off topic, but if you're going to use that argument for price you should apply it to everyone else who uses air-cooled or older motors. Consider the Monster S2R 1000. Its engine is equally antiquated (air-cooled, SOHC), the overall design of the bike is well over 10 years old, the componentry is no better than anything on the XB, and it still sells for $10,495. | ||
| Jaimec |
Buells are not expensive. They are quite competitively priced, actually. You want to see STUPID pricing? Look across the showroom floor at the other models in the dealership (Seminole excepted, of course). |
