| Author | Message | ||
     Moondust |
Im curious whether my drummer is running at the optimum performance with everything stock ? Reason I ask is - when running my remus on my previous city X it sounded great but when I put the stock back on - I noticed the bike felt alot faster low end & seemed to just go better all the way up the gears. Now with my new XB12SCG - it came fitted with a drummer - again it sounds awesome but I remember when I test rode the stock xb12scg - it felt quicker & smoother low end. I wondering if the drummer runs better with the race ecm etc or is best with the stock bits ? | ||
| 07xb12scg |
Im curious whether my drummer is running at the optimum performance with everything stock ? No. Plain and simple. It may run fine, but if the fuel injection is not tuned for the pipe it won't be optimal. | ||
| Moondust |
so basically are you saying - I'd be better off with the stock can ? for better performance ? I have to admit - I think I prefer the performance of the demo xb12scg which had the stock can on ...  | ||
| Gentleman_jon |
I would get in touch with Kevin, at Drummer, one of our sponsors, for the definitive answer. He is a very helpful fellow. If memory serves, (always a long shot:-), Kevin has said that the Drummer works fine with the stock ECM, which has the ability to "learn" and adapt to the muffler. It also works great with the K+N filter, open air box, no snorkle, and the Buell Race ECM: the set up that I use.  | ||
| Moondust |
So -anybody else running the Drummer with stock ? I dont really want shell out anymore dough for the race ecm etc. I guess If the stock could learn that would be the way I would go but to be real honest I had a hoot for weeks on the demo 12scg - as it was- all stock - just really nippy & quick. Maybe the drummer will have to be swapped back for a stock....  | ||
| Deltablue |
If you need a stock can...can you use a 9? I've been meaning to pick up a Drummer. Just FYI | ||
| Bads1 |
You can run it stock. Get out and ride it at higher RPM,s like say 3500 for some miles. The stock ECM will learn it to what Kevin say's. His race team bike is running a stock ECM. Jersey Guy runs his stock. Mine I have the race ECM and that just because its been in there since almost new in 04. | ||
| Kozman32 |
I have a 05 xb12s and run a stock ecm with drummer and buell race filter, After a little riding the bike runs great | ||
| Kds1 |
I have the stock ecm on my 12 and the race bike and I don't have any problems....if you give it time to learn not only the muffler or mod swap but the weather , every time it changes drastically it has to retune itself....you can buy the race ecm or remapped ecm from Al, either way its your choice, usually what your budget allows.....if you need to call me here's my cell # 828-381-7546 Kevin www.kdfab.com | ||
| Moondust |
After it learns once - does it stay like that - or does have to re-learn all the time ? I really did notice a big difference between the stock can & my previous can - the remus ( sebering ) The performance was like night & day - the stock just felt on point. I love the drummer sound but the performance isn't the same as it was on the demo stock scg. Will I get the same performance after - it re-learns ? or is it best to get the race filter & race ecm etc ? | ||
| Bads1 |
If it needs to learn then the outcome would be better performance. The race ECM is a bonus. Doe's it need to learn again ?? Once it has learned ..... it has learned. | ||
| Tank_bueller |
I ran a Drummer on a 9 with the stock ECM for a short time. It never seemed to "learn". It was a slug on the bottom, and "choppy" mid to top. I put the race ECM on, let it "learn", and it runs like a raped ape. It actually scared me last weekend about 2500rpm, at half throttle. Kicked a rock in second, and the front lifted. It aint supposed to do that. Tank | ||
| Xbswede |
I run Stock 12 ECM with my Drummer. No running issues. It does seem like it constantly is changing in power delivery from day to day depending on weather. Our weather will go from 30 degrees to 70 degrees lately. Not sure if the Race ECM handles it any better. But I may try one of these days just to see. | ||
| Jmhinkle |
I am running the Stock ECM on my Uly with the '07 airbox, K&N, Drummer Original, and '07 flash to the ECM. It runs fabulous. I have a Race ECM, but I don't think I'm going to use it because the bike runs so well like this. As soon as I put the Drummer on I did a TPS reset and then I took it and rode it good to re-learn everything it needed to. It has been phenomenal ever since. | ||
| Al_lighton |
It is continuously learning and relearning. If it didn't, it wouldn't be very good at adapting to changing ambient conditions. Remember, Buell put the learning features in the ECM to compensate for Density/Altitude, not so that you could switch your pipe. You have to realize that the stock ECM was tuned for the stock pipe, the race ECM was tuned to the race pipe. If a pipe has the same basic curve shape as either, it will probably operate well off the map it matches. If you look in the exhaust shootout at the shape of the WOT curves for any given muffler, where the stock pipe, race pipe, and the muffler in question are plotted on top of each other, you can get a good feel for how the AFV will learn. On an XB12, over the learn range of approximately 2-4K, You can get a reasonably good feel for whether the AFV will learn up or down by comparing those curves across that band. Where the muffler in question makes less power than the stock pipe, the AFV will learn down on the stock map. Where it makes more power than the stock pipe, the AFV will learn up. That is the problem with running on a map that isn't developed specifically for the pipe in question. Where you cruised the bike last will determine what your AFV will learn to, and that AFV will scale the map for the open loop response. So it is possible to get inconsistent behavior. The Buell stock and race pipes are generally in a low midrange hole from 3-4K that most other pipes aren't in. Learned in that range, the AFV will learn up and scale the open loop response richer. But from 2-3K, where the Buell stock and race pipes generally perform quite well, many of the pipes will scale the AFV down and scale the open loop response leaner. The worst combination is when the bike is cruised in the low end where the AFV learns down, and then operated through the midrange where the open loop response is leanest. That combination can result in a very lean midrange response. Not likely blow up your bike lean, because there is much less waste heat generated through the midrange. But if the bike is running lean near red line, well, that's where there is enough waste heat that things can get interesting. Run on a race ECM, the open loop response at the top is generally pretty rich, because the Buell race pipe has a very good top end (paid for by it's weak midrange). But run a stock ECM, and you may be marginally lean a the top. Couple that with a learned down AFV, and you might not have a good recipe for engine longevity. Piston scuff and/or detonation could be the result, especially if operated in hotter ambient conditions. The D&D is an example of one that fuels very poorly off of either the stock or race ECM maps. It's response curve is a virtual opposite of the stock or race muffler (and herefore ECM) response. The Buell stock and race maps are strong on the ends, weak in the middle. The D&D is strong in the middle, weak on the ends. A D&D equipped bike often runs quite rich because the AFV learns sharply up though the lower midrange, and since the D&D response falls off near the top compared to the stock or race response, it is usually already rich at the top. But if it is cruised down between 2 and 2.5K, the AFV will learn down, and the top end richness isn't so exaggerated. If you had a pipe that made 5% more power across the board than a stock pipe, you could bolt on a stock ECM and run it without compromise. The AFV would learn up by 5%, the map would be suitably scaled, and you'd be done. That pipe doesn't exist. Al (Message edited by al_lighton on April 18, 2007) | ||
| Moondust |
Very informative Al, cheers . Ok so basically - in the end when it comes down to performance - am I better off with the stock pipe for the best performance ? Maybe Buell had it right in the first place ..? Or will it get better as I ride more ? Thing is - as I mentioned earlier - on my previous City X running the stock was very responsive , quicker & just more power overall. That is the power I liked - felt perfect. Maybe Im better off with the stock.. (Message edited by moondust on April 18, 2007) | ||
| Al_lighton |
in the end when it comes down to performance - am I better off with the stock pipe for the best performance Well, one would need to define 'performance'. If you defined it as top end power, well, no, stock would not be best, several pipes will stomp it there. If you defined it as midrange grunt, well, no, a D&D will stomp it there, and MOST aftermarket pipes will best it there. If you defined it as overall performance end to end, Microns and Drummer SS pipes will clearly best it, and several pipes are pretty good at doing good across the board. If you defined it as most consistent fueling end to end, a stock setup would be hard to beat. And the low end response of the stock setup is decent. A bunch of smart engineers at Buell work 40+ hours a week to make that combination work right. But they also had to meet EPA requirements, and that ties there hands a bit with regard to getting the 'best performance' When we do Directlink remapping, our goal is to get the fueling back to where the Buell guys had it, but with the new intake and exhaust configurations accounted for. That means tuning the high RPM/High throttle response for max power (13.5:1 AFR), and tuning the closed loop learn mode such that the AFV will learn consistently to a value of 100 at sea level. The high throttle stuff is relatively easy to achieve. The AFV cruise mode takes a LOT more time, and is why we beta test the maps. Getting the map so that it doesn't exhibit AFV skew takes some work, and you have to understand how the ECM works to make it right. It is also important to realize that Buell did not map YOUR bike. They mapped a few bikes that are like YOUR bike, and the map they developed is pushed into YOUR bike. Lots of little things make YOUR bike different than the bike they mapped (i.e, core shift in the head machinging, port gasket overhang, weldment at the collector on your header and inside your muffler, etc), and as a result, the map on YOUR bike may be very close, but not perfect. But the big influencers of power band, (i.e., intake tract length and volume, cams, pipe length, volume, location of major discontinuities in the pipe, etc) are all pretty close and it is good enough. When you change a few of those items (i.e., muffler, intake configuration) the system RPM response will change, and to be optimized, the fueling should change as well. But a few points of AFR up or down from optimal doesn't hurt anything, and the effect on power is not as substantial as some think. It's only when you start getting grossly off the mark, especially on the lean side, and especially at high power output, that you really need to worry. If it were me, I would run the race ECM at minimum with any aftermarket pipe, with the possible exception of the D&D. The richer top end response is a better and safer match to all of them. The D&D is a bit of an enigma, it really is best run on a custom map because of it's polar opposite response to the stock OR race map. But a map developed for the particular combination is always best. Al (Message edited by al_lighton on April 18, 2007) | ||
| Jkhawaii |
so AL, who is there some one or a company that one can call and get a custom map already tuned for a type of muffler/filter combo? | ||
| Freezerburn |
See poster above. | ||
| Al_lighton |
We have some combos complete and are working on more. One of these days I'm going to create the list and get it productized and up on the web site. Al | ||
| Moondust |
I've been told the best way to go - is stock ecm & drummer. So its a little confusing on whether the race ecm will do much - I guess i'll just keep on running her in - get upto 1500 miles before I think about any changes at this stage. Still, if more of you Drummer owners - could post your your setups - ie: stock or remapped or race & thoughts on these ecm setups - which is best way to etc - that would be much appreciated. Infact any info on the remapped ecm would be great ? Cheers | ||
| Aatch |
i'm also running a stock ecm with my drummer (on an xb9sx) i decided to stick with stock ecm on Kevin's recommendations, and so far, at around 1,500 miles, it seems to be running fine.... any one else? | ||
| Edmbueller |
I run a 2004 XB12R with the snorkel removed, swiss-cheesed inner airbox, race filter and on Kevin's recommendation the race ecm. Bike runs WAY better than with the race can. I have the stock ecm from the bike but have not run the bike with the Drummer and the stock. | ||
| Wimxb9s |
I have an XB 12SS with Drummer, K&N and stock ECM. I've noticed that since then, the fan doesn't start a soon as before. No problems so far, but then I've been riding this combination for a mere 700 miles now. Total milege is now 7000. | ||
| Xbswede |
XB12Ss, Stock ECM, Open Airbox with K&N filter, Drummer SS. No problems running. I have around 1200 miles on my setup. Runs much stronger then stock setup especially through the mid range 3000 - 4000 rpm | ||
| Brickcop |
My 2007 XB12Ss is running great with the stock ecm and K&N filter with the original Drummer. It did take several miles to learn the pipe but now it definitley seems to pull harder then the stock pipe. It looks and sounds alot better then the original. Plus Kevin is the best when it comes to customer service and backing his products.} | ||
| Moondust |
hey brickcop, When you mean serveral miles ? how much ? Was there a noticeable difference in power low down ? Does the K&N filter make a difference also over the stock filter ? | ||
| Surlypacer |
SS drummer, stock ECM, Stock air filter, pulled my front plug and it was tan for sure. I dont like K&N filters let to much grit in. Bike runs great. Kevin is a great guy to deal with and seems very passionate about what he does. Ill support him with my dollars when ever i need something. | ||
| Jerseyguy |
I ran my Ss with the stock ECM, K&N & Drummer CF all summer last year at Kevin's request. No problems at all. | ||
| Bosezone |
I run Race ECM, K&N, 07 airbox and standard Drummer. Runs excellent with noticably more power across the RPM range. Very noticable. I switch back and forth between all stock and the above setup so I am very familiar with the change. Surprising thing to me was the difference the 07 airbox make to both setups. Much improved overall throttle response and noticable power gain in either setup. | ||
| Moondust |
Bosezone, So would I get better power with a race ecm & k&n ? Thats what this whole debate is about - I liked the power I was getting with the stock can but now that I have the drummer the power feels diffrent below 3000 rpm & I would like to get smoother power all the way ( like on the stock ) If the race ecm & k&n does this then I would invest but even Kevin suggests that the stock ecm is the way to go - so its confusing..  | ||
| Bosezone |
Moondust, Kevin is the man and I don't want to contradict him, after all, he developed and raced the pipe. I have not run the Drummer with the stock ECM. Al Lighton told me that the fueling of the race ECM/open airbox/K&N combo worked very well with the Drummer when he did his extensive testing and the exhaust shootout verified this. I can tell you that the stock ECM and exhaust with a K&N and 07 air box WILL improve performance in terms of both power and throttle response across the RPM range. You will like the improvement. I can also tell you that the K&N, 07 airbox, Race ECM and drummer far out perform the stock setup or the K&N/airbox/stock pipe setup. No question about it. More power across the range top to bottom with no fueling problems anywhere either. Either way, you can definitely improve on the stock configuration without sacrificing any performance high or low. | ||
| Mwbob |
I have a brand new '06 12Ss and I picked up a D&D on the advice of friends. Looks like I may not have made the best choice, but I do value midrange far more than top end, so maybe not. Al sent me some really good info on the Directlink software and I think I may get it and do some "on the road" tuning. I want to get familiar with the software by checking out the stock setup and possibly modifying the stock setup to run better at low speeds/low throttle openings. The bike runs like crap in stop and go traffic and at low speeds in the city. If it had a carb on it I'd say that the idle mixture was too lean (EPA). Out on the road is a different thing; it runs great and has great responce/power. I need to get some info on the "wide band" O2 sensor. Any thoughts? | ||
| Medic352 |
Okay, so what about the econo drummer? And, do drummer's still have the exhaust valve? The Race ECM does away with the servo, so how does it work with a stock ECM or is there an add on that makes the ECM "think" everything is still in place. I got a race kit for my '05 XB12R(not installed just yet, waiting on another header to get here in the mail), since then I bought a crashed '04 XB12R, I made a deal for another Race ECM...thinking about a Drummer or an Econo Drummer. Then I can have a Pepsi challenge. Thanks | ||
| Surlypacer |
Wouldn't it make sense if you run a dummer and a stock ecm to leave the stock air filter in. You shouldn't run lean.  |
