| Author | Message | ||
     Plag |
For comparative purposes the manufacturers numbers are as good as any as they are required to meet SAE standards for exactly that reason. | ||
| Swordsman |
"Ok. . .ok. . . ok . . .but if you DID have a life, what would you do with your time?" That rings so true I think it may actually be in the Bible somewhere...  ~SM | ||
| Spike |
Thepup- We went through the same torque discussion last year: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/327 77/191997.html My response now is the same as it was then:
The end result is that after adding water cooling, DOHC, increasing maintenance, and decreasing fuel mileage, you still haven't made any more power on the bottom end and you have to rev beyond the XB's redline to get to any extra power gained. | ||
| Greenlantern |
Ha ha, Arkansas! I get it!  | ||
| Chadhargis |
Now that MotoGP has gone to 800cc machines, I wonder if Honda would sell Buell the RC211V V5 engine? Afterall, they sold some to Kenny Roberts.  | ||
| Xl1200r |
Xl1200r,you were comparing it to a XB not other sportbikes.It's lighter than a XB has more HP and very little difference in torque.Is it worth $28,000 more than a XB? NO Not sure how you define "very little difference", but an 11% deficit in torque is considerable to me. I'm also puzzled over which dimension you believe you exist in, but in this one 425 lbs is heavier than 395 lbs. | ||
| Liquorbox |
Quit the mindless, unsubstantiated debating, and just take your 1200 cc Buell out on the road, find ANY liter bike (Or, even any new 750 for that matter!), put both bikes in 3rd gear at 3500 RPM and do a roll-on. You Buell zealots will get the surprise of your life! | ||
| Thepup |
"..and yet not a single one of the above listed bikes makes 75 pct. of it's total torque by 3500. The peak number is irrelevant to me, at 37 yrs old I have very little use for a detuned race bike as a daily ride, all I want is enough torque to be FUN in the rpm range I spend most of my time in 3500-4000. Rev for rev NOTHING touches the Buell. Ride your YZCBGXZR around at 3500-4000rpm for a day, no revving past 6k, and tell how much fun it was: ). " Ridrx,why would I ride an IL4 around at 3500 RPM.AS Liquorbox has said any 600 or above(except a R6) has better roll on times than an XB12.The original statement was that there were few bikes that make the torque Buell does,which is not true,Buell does make torque lower in the rev range than most bikes though,but that doesn't mean better,just different.I know some people like Buells power curve better nothing wrong with that. | ||
| Spike |
Anyone care to provide any data to go with that? I have no doubt that any bike with more power will accelerate quicker once it reaches the RPM range where it makes more power. What you're claiming is that in this case the bike with less power will actually accelerate quicker. Aside from any big variances in weight, reciprocating weight, or gearing, I don't see how you can expect that to happen. | ||
| Thepup |
Spike,I am getting all my info from Sportrider http://www.sportrider.com/bikes/146_performance_nu mbers/ According to those numbers,yes it seems that in fact the Buell is actually out accelerated by a bike with less torque. (Message edited by thepup on March 29, 2007) | ||
| Liquorbox |
"Anyone care to provide any data to go with that? I have no doubt that any bike with more power will accelerate quicker once it reaches the RPM range where it makes more power. What you're claiming is that in this case the bike with less power will actually accelerate quicker. Aside from any big variances in weight, reciprocating weight, or gearing, I don't see how you can expect that to happen." All my Info comes from the road & track. Just do what I said. Go out on the street and find a I-4 and do it! Better if it's a friend, or someone you know, so you know they're being honest though. Why do you think Buells are consistently beaten on the track by 600's??? Because they are lighter, have more power & make more torque?? | ||
| Ridrx |
1. I didn't say the Buell was "better", only more fun for ME. 2. I also didn't say the Buell had a better roll-on, my point was you would be river dancing on the shifter all day. Not fun to me. If geared the same as an XB, they would be left wheezing, the gearing is the jap bikes saving grace, thus too much shifting for ME. 3. Buell is not a spec bike(we all know this), so really any comparison in numbers is a one sided. 4. The Buell "designed as a street bike FIRST" does get beaten by the "built for the track" bikes, shouldn't it? Now tell me a Buell has NEVER won a race against a jap 600. That is not possible is it? The jap bikes are lighter make more... blah blah blah. | ||
| Blake |
Puppy is right. Plenty of other bikes have more torque and more HP. I'd still rather ride a Buell, on account of I dig what they do have, artful style, uniqueness, great sound, amazing simplicity and innovation, and kick ass handling. | ||
| Thepup |
"I'd still rather ride a Buell, on account of I dig what they do have, artful style, uniqueness, great sound, amazing simplicity and innovation, and kick ass handling." Blake,thats a perfect way to explain it,nothing wrong with that. | ||
| Spike |
Liquorbox- We've been through all this before with you, you've changed usernames to hide from your own arguments and then later agree with yourself, then you've been banned for flaming, then you've changed usernames again only to start the whole process over with. Wouldn't it be easier just to stick to the facts and not have to hide all the time? What was the point in that rant you posted a while back about how you only speak the truth and how you never back down from anything?
Both of those are attempts to side step the issue. What you actually claimed is that in a roll on from 3500rpm a 600 with less power and torque would walk away from a bike making more power and torque. I've already stated that if each bike is brought up to it's peak power the bike with more power will walk away, you guys are implying the opposite will happen. Try not to clutter it with extra data. Just explain how a vehicle with less power can out accelerate a vehicle with more power aside from any large differences in weight, reciprocating weight, or gearing. | ||
| Liquorbox |
First of all, I said, "a liter bike, or even a 750". NOT a 600! And, I think you have me confused with someone, or something else. MY argument is; that Buells do NOT in fact, make the tremendous amounts of torque that most here believe they do. Especially compared to ANY liter bike! Yes, it starts at a lower RPM, but the power band of an I-4 is also MUCH broader, with most red lining above 12K RPM, whereas the Buells are bouncing off the rev limiter at 6500, so that makes the BS story of "River dancing on the shifter" a moot point also! | ||
| Liquorbox |
Spike, in going back and reading over your posts, in an attempt to try and figure out what you're talking about here, I can see that you are a "Harley guy", or "Biker". It doesn't seem likely anyone, or any amount of information, or facts, is going to change YOUR mind that Buells are the best motorcycle ever built. Much like people who feel George W. Bush is the best thing to happen to America. | ||
| Spike |
You made the 3500rpm claim, he made the 600cc claim. You both seem to be in agreement with each other, so I'm responding to both of you. In terms of peak torque, you are correct that most liter bikes reach the same peak numbers as a Buell, but as we've seen from the data posted above, none of them make that torque off the bottom end. This is where the Buell shines. Back to your original claim about a 750 and 3500rpm, here are some real numbers to work with: A 2000/2004 GSXR750 dyno:  A 2004 XB12R dyno:  I've already stated that once the bike with more power gets to the RPM range where it makes more power it will get up and walk away, so let's put that aside for now. What do these charts show at 3500rpm? At that rpm the Buell is making 65-70ft-lbs of torque and 45-50hp. The GSXR is making 35-40ft-lbs of torque and 20-25hp. What you're claiming is that a bike with 20-25hp is going to out accelerate a bike with 45-50hp. As I stated earlier, aside from any great variations in weight, reciprocating weight, or gearing, there's just no way that's going to happen. | ||
| Isham |
According to those numbers,yes it seems that in fact the Buell is actually out accelerated by a bike with less torque. ------------------------------------------- I don't know why people insist on comparing I4s with the ol Vtwin. They are oranges and apples. A torquey engine doesn't produce speed. One with a lot HP does. Just like a semi with a 1000lbs of torque doesn't go all that fast but a 1000hp will get you moving quick. The right combination of Torque and HP plus weight per application is what's important. (Message edited by isham on March 30, 2007) | ||
| Spike |
There it is! Good old Ccemn1/71sportster/Bikin111/fanofxbnow has finally come out of his shell to show his true self. I've already gone over those same "brand loyalty" arguments with you before and stomped all over every attempt to work with real information or facts. You will likely once again ignore the fact that I've never even owned a Harley and in fact have owned far more Hondas than Buells. Currently in my garage there are 5 motorcycles and the XB is the only one that isn't imported. How's that for being a "Harley guy?" About the information and facts, try to deal with anything in my post above without resorting to personal attacks or boasting about how great you are, then we'll see who really refuses to change their mind. One last request- can you find a single post where I made any such claim about Buells being the best bike ever built? | ||
| Liquorbox |
I rest my case! I'm sorry, but you appear to be very unstable? Take that as an attack, or however you wish, But, FYI, I was out with a buddy just last week. I on my XB12, he on a new GSXR 750. We both put the bikes in third gear, slowed to 3500 RPM and did a roll-on. He walked away from me effortlessly! You can quote & post all the graphs & diagrams you want and even accuse me of anything you want, but I'm talking REAL world street & track experiences here. | ||
| Court |
I'm curious . . . how many here have ever spent over $30,000 on a single motorcycle? $25,000? I wonder what the demand would be in the Roher price range. . . | ||
| Spike |
Let's recap: one of us deals with facts and data and has used the same badweb username for a number of years. The other makes wild claims that he's unable to back up, then changes usernames to agree with himself, then resorts to personal attacks and outrageous boasting before getting banned numerous times. Which one of us is unstable? About your GSXR750 claim- something doesn't add up. Both those bikes have completely different gearing. How can both bikes be in the same gear at the same RPM and both be travelling at the same speed? You may have tried a roll on against your buddy and lost, but the rest of the facts don't add up. | ||
| Freezerburn |
Third gear is not going to be the same gearing between both bikes. With identical gearing at 3500 the Buell would by simple physics out-excellerate for the next 2000 rpm. You might think that a 600 or a litre bike is tall geared for first gear because it can go over 60 mph, well that is only because it revs up to 13,000. It's been said before, apples to oranges. Oh yeah, the Roher... | ||
| Plag |
That kind of money I would buy a new Duc 1098 not a garage project! Kidding about the garage project but I would buy the Duc. | ||
| Plag |
Sweeet!   | ||
| Ridrx |
Liquorbox, You are forever going on about the numbers of jap bikes. Just wondered if you simply enjoyed dragging up worn out inapplicable arguments for your own entertainment. For the record, your statement about I4's having a broader power curve is funny. I couldn't care less if a 600/750/1000 is faster on a track OR the street, I don't ride to prove anything to anyone and if someone has a faster bike...good for them. My buell makes me laugh out loud when I ride, something NO jap bike of any displacement or power has ever done for me. As far as the Roehr goes, I would never spend that much on a bike even if I could, and if I wanted a new trick twin repli-racer sportbike I'd wait for a Buell to fill that spot in the garage. Plag, Yes, the Duc IS sweet. | ||
| Blake |
The broadness of a powercurve is properly assessed based upon the percentage of the operational RPM range where at least say 50% of peak HP is available. I'd say operational rev range is from 1500 rpm on up for an IL4 and from 2500 on up for a Buell V-Twin. But let's use the same number for each, let's use 1500 rpm for the lower limit of engine operation. The operational rev range for the Buell XB12 would then be rev limit 6800 minus 1500 rpm or 5300 rpm. For the GSXR 750 the operational rev range would be 13800-1500 rpm or 12,300 rpm. The Buell XB12 makes 50% or more of peak HP from around 3800 rpm through to redline at 6800 rpm for a 3000 rpm spread. The proportion of meat in the Buell's powerband is then 3000/5300 or about 57%. For the GSXR750, the meaty portion of the powerband where it makes at least 50% of peak HP starts right at 7,000 rpm and continues through to redline at 13,800 rpm for a powerband spread of 6,800 rpm. As a percentage of the total operational rev range, that equates to 6800/12300 or about 55%. So the meaty portion of the engines' powerbands are about the same. The one big difference being that you have to rev one to better than twice the rpm before getting there, which I personally dislike. One of the reasons I really like my Buell is that it provides the meat of the powerband darn near immediately once it gets going. | ||
| Spike |
Ditto. I love how I can ease off the clutch just above idle, roll on the throttle, short shift at 3k rpm, and leave traffic behind. Having big power right off the bottom end gives a sensation that the bike is always in the right gear and you're never really out of the powerband. | ||
| Mortarmanmike120 |
Well said Blake, and ditto. |
