| Author | Message | ||
     Drfudd |
Ok, so you could probably call me a newbie, but I don't want to be called a squid so I keep things normal. In my normal route of corners I take on my daily ride I find this one corner with smooth concrete and the speed limit is 45, the safety sign says 40, in my car I usually do about 45, 50 pushing it. On my bike.... I can find myself doing 60 without breaking a sweat, hold the same line every time, I've even pushed it hard a few times and found myself toping 80 as I came out of the corner, while perfectly holding the same line every time with confidence. On a few corners on my route I won't push it too hard because the pavement is uneven and a few loose spots will screw me up badly. I only take corners hard that I know I can take and is in my ability My question for fellow Badwebbers is how do you know when fast is TOO fast. is it just something you learn overtime, or when your coming up to a new corner can you rely on the recommended speed signs for guidance on how fast you should be going? what are your tricks for properly judging a corner? | ||
| Glitch |
Just use common sense and take some riding classes. I highly recommend Ed Bargy also check out Sport Bike Track Time. My 2ยข what are your tricks for properly judging a corner? Look as far through the corner as you can. Smooth is the key. Never take a new corner fast, especially on the street. Relax, breathe, don't panic, look where you want to be... Honestly, if you take my advise and visit a track, you'll be thanking me. | ||
| Naustin |
Never take a new corner fast, especially on the street. +1 | ||
| Mortarmanmike120 |
Never take a new corner fast, especially on the street +2 | ||
| Teeps |
Always have 20% or more in reserve for the unexpected and unintended. You'll minimize your chance of finding out the hard (painful) way of what IS TOO FAST. My best advice is take a lesson on a race track. Better do some road racing on the track. After that you'll never feel the "need" to find out what too fast is on the street. | ||
| Raymondt |
I agree with the 20% reserve and even more depending on the speed and conditions. I think it is also pertinent to add that if you go in over your head look where you want to go, concentrate on that point, hold on, stuff it in and make it stick. The bike is capable of more than most any of us could ever manage. What do you have to loose? Two crashes that I have witnessed on the street were avoidable mostly people on the brakes driving off the road when they freeked out in a corner. Save the 9/10ths stuff for the track. | ||
| M1combat |
I recommend that you look for "just fast enough" as opposed to "too fast"  . You'll know exactly when you're going too fast. It's ok though... You'll end up stopped  . Really though... It's just a feeling. The bike is most likely far more capable than you are (no offence, but the XB goes around turns VERY quickly) so when YOU feel like you're going too fast, you are. Back it off. It's your survival instincts telling you that you're pushing too hard. You're making yourself uncomfortable. When that happens you tense up just a tad and that's bad. Back off and just relax. When you ride constantly relaxed you'll start finding speed. Also... don't worry about the speed itself... Listen to the engine. Keep your eyes far ahead on the road and pay attention to that . Read "Total Control" by Lee Parks and "Twist of the Wrist I and II" by Keith Code. Do a trackday. These will all teach you things about the limit. It's much better to go "too fast" at the track where there are ambulances. You have NO idea how fast 30MPH is... It effing hurts. For me... If I'm on the street the indicators that I'm going "faster than I oughta be going" (which is in between "fast enough" and "too fast") are that the rear will start swaying side to side about an inch or so each way coming into a turn, both tires sliding a bit at the apex, brakes fading (only ever happened with LRB Golds), rear tire getting greasy (over heated), bumping my shoulders into guard rails, taking roadside shrubbery to the visor (very narrow shoulders on my favorite roads), people in cars coming towards me in right hand turns throwing their hands in front of their face and screaming... that sort of thing. Signs I'm TRYING to go too fast... A general hurried feeling, letting my head cross the yellow line in left hand turns, running over pebbles (I shoulda known they were there), not being able to think of ANYTHING else but going, hands getting tired (a little tense), slight wobble when exiting the turn (moving around on the bike fast instead of smooth), slight tendency to roll in with resistance (not letting go of the brake smoothly), shifting in the yellow... stuff like that. ALWAYS make sure your tires are warm before going "a little faster than you ought to be". It'll turn into "too fast" real quick if you don't . | ||
| Firemanjim |
That is a hard one as some speed limit signs on turns seem made for an overloaded semi---you can double posted speed and be good. Other times when the sign says 20,it MEANS 20!! Usually find these out in the country roads.It will be the uphill 180 degree off camber one. So unless it's a turn you know just keep it near the limit. | ||
| Old_man |
If you can see the complete corner its one thing,- but if you can't see, and you may have to stop in the middle of that corner - that is a big consideration. | ||
| Strato9r |
I second Donald's recommendation of reading Lee Park's "Total Control". There is a remarkable amount of information on this very subject, from the physics of what happens during cornering, to the psychological and physiological conditions facing the rider. The low speed exercises laid out in the book are a great way to start feeling the effects of centrifugal forces on your machine without having to involve a lot of speed. It's the first thing I do when I get out in the spring; find a clean parking lot out in the industrial end of the city and practice tight circles and figure eights until looking through the corners and transitions becomes intuitive. But, what's a good rule of thumb on the street? An old dude I used to work with, who was a helluva rider, had a good way of looking at it. It's better to come into a corner a little slow, set up your line, and get on the throttle a bit earlier, than to carry too much speed in, and miss your line altogether. | ||
| Glitch |
What do you have to loose? Your ability to walk like Pete here at the Appalachian BRAG Adventure, or worse, your life.  | ||
| Hughlysses |
I read something recently that recommended holding something like 20% in reserve for left hand turns, and holding extra in reserve (maybe 30%) for right handers. The reason being that if you lose it on a left hander (at least in the U.S.), you run off the road. If you lose it on a right hander, you run into (or under) on-coming traffic. | ||
| Davy_boy |
Drfudd I met a guy in up State NY 2 summers ago . As we talked he was telling me that after he started doing track days in PA that he never realized just how dangerous riding on the streets really is . Not to mention riding hard in the twisties . Do your self a favor leave the aggressive riding for the track . Better to live and tell the story then to be the story . JM2C. Way to drive it home Glitch (Message edited by Davy_boy on March 14, 2007) | ||
| Starbellied_sneetch |
For me, it's simple. If I'm scared, or don't feel like I'm totally in control, it's too fast. But I'm a fairly conservative rider. | ||
| Slaughter |
Having seen people wadding up their bikes in the hills here, I'd add to the voices above about leaving a comfortable reserve. You can COUNT ON there being the occasional rock, oil, inattentive oncoming drivers, dirt, water, tar snakes - and if you haven't left enough in reserve, you're likely to fall. It might not be quite as "exciting" but trust me, that kind of excitement on public highways is just not worth it. Let your fear tell you if you're going "too fast" You'll know. If you ever lose your fear, you ought to consider quitting. Unfortunately, many riders DON'T leave enough in reserve - but their misfortune is our good fortune because we all need spare parts for our bikes at well below retail! (Message edited by slaughter on March 14, 2007) | ||
| Gowindward |
Read "The Pace" http://www.pashnittours.com/thepace.html | ||
| Rocketman |
You'll know exactly when you're going too fast. Which accounts for experience - or lack of it. The problem is, there's always going to be corners that catch out even the most experienced. Your best defense is to know your bike and how to handle it, but if you play hard you are always upping the risk factor. The great news is, you have to be real dumb to go so fast into a corner you're never going to make it. That kind of dumbness comes from not reading the road properly. Read what the road offers and know your limits, or be prepared to pay the consequences. Rocket | ||
| Justin_case |
"If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough".- Mario Andretti | ||
| Cityxslicker |
on my way home last summer, I came around a corner, Speed limit was 40, suggested yellow speed for the corner was 15, I ducked, tucked, and moved over the side of the seat a bit and kept her at 40 all the way through. Not a stretch of most ability by far... however, the cop behind me (in an unmarked suburban) let me know that it was TOO fast | ||
| Fed |
break a sweat, squeeze the grips real tight .....tooooo fast | ||
| Aj06bolt12r |
That is kinda a question I was wondering also. I have kinda been judgeing my overall cornering speed as fairly conservative judgeing by the fact that I still have chicken strips on my stock dunlops, about the width of three quarters probly. But now starting to wonder if that is any real kid of gauge cuz I rode with some friends this weekend, a newer r6 and maybee a 99 honda 600 repli racer. We all run different brand tires also but our skill levels are similar. We pushed it pretty hard this weekend as far as I was concerned, I wasnt leading, I was keeping up and it was pretty scary, ran wide a couple of times tryn to catch back up from running like normal and discoverd that I could lean past my old comfort zone and the bike would still stick, felt the suspension actually depress noticeably when snaping to sharp lean angle when left with the chioce of doing that or taking out some mailboxes, first time that happend to me but at the end of the ride my chicken stripps barely moved and the slowest of us... the older honda 600 has no chicken strips whatsoever, and the fastest rider, the r6 guy had just tiny thin strips, and my tires had the most strips left even tho I was faster than no strips guy, why and how could this be? And also is it normal to feel the suspension squat down just from g-force when cornering on the street for the faster riders or is that starting to push too hard, I have the suspension settings at the agressive settings that I found posted on the badweb, thanks and sorry this turned into a book | ||
| Rocketman |
Chicken strips indicate nothing of any real value to your scenario. Different profile tyres, and there are many, will ride different off the tyre centre line. Different tyres, different profiles and different bikes all make up different 'chicken strips'. Reading about you trying harder, and running wide is not good news. You need to ride on your own and learn your skills and familiarise yourself with your bikes handling characteristics. Doing so in a pack will always take some of your focus away from your comfort and learning zone. That said I've never personally felt the need to hone my own skills on a track, but it sounds to me like it might work and be a great idea for you. It might even save your life. Professional help is no bad thing. Rocket | ||
| Slaughter |
Rocket is absolutely correct. I have rarely seen the problems with solo riders that I have with riders in groups. "Ride your own ride" is always good advice. If you MUST ride with a group, just agree to meet up at a location. Hurrying to keep up is where many people end up turning their bikes (and bodies) into scrap - bikes for people like me looking for spares for racing - and their bodies - well, hopefully they've filled out their organ donor cards. Seriously, stay out of group rides unless you're willing to ride at the pace of the SLOWEST rider. That is the ONLY pace in which a group ride makes sense - otherwise you're DEMANDING that one or more riders in the group must ride beyond their comfort level. If you're NOT going to a track then find a LEGITIMATELY skilled rider (NOTE: I'm talking SKILL AND NOT SPEED) - a skilled rider who will pay attention to your comfort level and will let you follow through familiar routes at a comfortable pace. Otherwise, ride alone and let me have the contact information for your buddies so I can get my salvage bids in on their stuff - we're ALWAYS looking for spare parts. | ||
| Snackbar64 |
Glitch, Is Pete permanently paralyzed? | ||
| Jerseyguy |
My personal rule of thumb is as follows. Most importantly it needs to be a safe place to push it a bit. Lets say a corner I drive very often, free of potholes, grit and debris. No cars in sight and no immovable objects on the shoulder. Doubling the suggested speed on those yellow signs is reasonable. Double + 10 will pucker my seat. | ||
| Jlnance |
Ok, so you could probably call me a newbie... My question for fellow Badwebbers is how do you know when fast is TOO fast. How much of a newbie? You've had the MSF class? This is a hard question to answer. As other have said, and I've found out myself, the bike can corner much better than you. Almost every time I've had a problem in a corner it's because I thought I was going too fast and got scared. The other times it's been because there was gravel in the corner and I didn't see it. Technically, if you have the bike leaned over so far the foot pegs are dragging on the ground and your turning radius is still too large to make the turn, that is when you're going too fast. Practically, that is a stupid way to ride on the street, as it leaves no room for error. To decide what is too fast, it helps to think about what is going to happen if your decision is wrong. Are you going to slide off the road into the shoulder, or are you going to end up under a car. The biggest problem I have is the occasional gravel patch. If you hit gravel with the bike leaned over, your rear tire is going to wash to the outside of the turn. To keep from dropping the bike, you're going to have to stand it up. If it's a right hand turn this means you're going to end up with the bike in the other lane. Or if you fail to stand it up, your going to low side and slide into the other lane. This isn't something you want to do with oncoming traffic. So be very careful with turns where you can't see that the pavement is clean or you can't see if there is traffic coming. Here is a suggestion for safer ways to play with turns. For right hand turns, hug the white line. Make a game out of it and see if you can keep the bike 1 foot from the line all the way around the turn. It's fun. And if you screw this up, you have the rest of the lane for a run off area. You can do something similar for left hand turns by hugging the yellow line. I'd only do this if you can look around the turn and ensure that there is no oncoming traffic. Cars don't always stay in their lanes. | ||
| Punkid8888 |
When I ride I like to go down some well know roads at a comfortable pace to get in a nice rhythm and warm the tires up a bit. I then hit some new roads and or less traveled ones. I almost always come into the turn slow to evaluate the radii the camber and pavement conditions. Then begin my turn and adjust lean and throttle, as I feel needed. Actually one of my favorite turns is a decreasing radii that is hidden in the tree line. Its actually starts with an off camber but finishes with some positive camber. And every time my motions are as follows. OK reduce speed... enter turn, start a good lean feelin the off camber sucking me out a bit... lean a bit more and ever so slightly apply some steady throttle, look through the turn more, find that its decreasing radii (it always surprises me) have a slight stomach drop as I need to lean more to keep my line while keeping a slight bit of throttle, just as you think you missed the apex the Camber comes up in end and really compresses you as you just lay down a handful of throttle with confidence and usually start screaming SWEEEEEETTTT in your helmet as you exit the turn. Man I love that Turn. Also side note, Chicken Strips have a lot to do with your style of riding. I have a CityX with its long bars and me being 6'4" I keep my but stationary and use the leverage of my inside hand to wrench me into a turn. On a Fire bolt I found I needed to shift my but and more of my body to get the bike to respond into a turn. The end result is on the CityX I look like I am falling over (thats what I have been told) cause me and the bike are leaning together, on a Firbolt I would be off the bike allowing the bike to be at less of an angle then me. The result is I have a very narrow chicken strip not because I ride well but because how I use the bike in a turn. anyways alot of this is from "Twist of the Wrist I" I need to read the second book before the season gets in full swing. Ride safe and watch the Sand | ||
| Justin_case |
When the tires start sliding, the hardest thing to do is NOT to tighten your grip. This skill will ONLY come with experience. The bike will seek a natural balance point. Use a light grip and keep looking where you want the front wheel to go. When you're comfortable with this phenomenon, you can start using the throttle to steer. All these skills are best learned at the track, of course. | ||
| Chadhargis |
I'll take a stab at answering your question. To me, it's not a physical limitation until you reach the limit of the tires or the bike, but there are other limits that come in to play WAY before that point. Even if you know the road, and have ridden that same corner hundreds of times, assume it's ALWAYS different, because it just might be. There might be oil, gravel, animals, etc. in your path. There could be something, anything that might conspire to take you down. What is next to the road? A nice grassy field, or trees, rocks, a steep drop off?? This makes a difference too. Lastly, it all comes down to your level or risk acceptance. I ride with some really fast guys. They take chances I'm not comfortable taking. Sure, I could go faster, but I don't. If they want to, fine. It's their choice. I'm not going to say they are riding too fast. I'm sure a few people who have ridden with me think I ride too fast. It all depends on your comfort level, first, then the conditions in which you are riding in. It's been said, and it bears repeating...get thee to a track day! | ||
| Terribletim |
Well put! So then the answer to the question is. . .When you fall over and hear a bunch of scraping sounds and feel a slight burn on your skin, too fast. |
