| Author | Message | ||
     Fravel |
Very Nice Car, Very Good Deal! http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/21/ 258601.html?1171638513 | ||
| 45_degrees |
Cool car Fravel. My dad had a nice '69 Rivi that he bought new. He had to search for a '69 because he waited too long and when he saw what the '70 looked like he had to hurry to find a '69. My favorite is the '68-'69. But the '63-'64 is very nice too. My older bro has wanted a '63 for a long time. I'll tell him about this one. I like the GM 'E' body cars. I've got a really nice '66 Toronado with very low miles if you'd like to see. It's not for sale though. | ||
| Bads1 |
Nice ride fravel. I'm sure your buddy will get his cash. 45 degree's, I'm a huge Old's fan had a few. Always like the 66 Toronado. Does it have the dual exhaust bumper?? Also buckets with console?? I used to have a 71 cutlass... was a great driver. Then a 68 442 that was perfect from bumper to bumper. Then my favorite was my Cutlass F-85 W-31 car. One of 104 made. 4 speed car with no power options at all not even a radio. Man I miss those cars. Now for me to get those cars its a small fortune. The F-85 is well over a 20g car now and 15 years ago when I owned it,it was a 8g car. Talk about investment. | ||
| 45_degrees |
Bads... I'm a big Olds fan too! All '66 and '67 Toronados had the dual exhaust cutouts and after '68 they didn't have them unless it was a W-34 Toro. The '66-'67 425 V8 had a performance cam basically like the W-34 455s in the '68-'70 Toronados. The '66 had stiff suspension and they were softened up a little every year after that. Interesting is there was an optional heavy-duty suspension option for later first generation Toros and it was basically just the '66 springs. All Olds' 425s had forged steel crankshafts. The 455s had either a regular iron crank or in the Toronado... a nodular iron crank that was a little stronger, but not as strong as the forged steel cranks in the 425s. All Toro engines used .921" lifters instead of the normal .842" lifters. 1966-67 425 - 385 hp, 475 ft.lbs. 1968-70 455 - 375 hp, 510 ft. lbs. 1968-70 455 W-34 - 400 hp, 500 ft. lbs. No buckets or console but the Stratobench... in '66 a console was available with the Stratobucket seats, but not a console shifter. The W-34s had an optional floor shifter. W-31 is a awesome car with the Ram-Rod Olds 350! Those things were wickedly fast and under-rated in power! I've got an article somewhere where they were getting in the 12 second 1/4 mile range with a stock Ram-Rod W-31! Their cams were too big to be able to operate power brakes... not enough vacuum. You should have kept it... Dang! My brother is a huge Cutlass fan. My personal favorite body style is the Cutlass Supreme "notchback" and especially the SX 455 version! They look so classy and unique. More rare than the fastback versions. And the '68 is very nice too. I like the taillights the best on the '68. Did you know that the '68-'69 Hurst/Olds Cutlass used the Toronado 455 rated at 390 hp? Its good to know there is an Olds fan here on BadWeb.   (Message edited by 45 degrees on February 16, 2007) | ||
| Bads1 |
45 degrees, The car I was reunited with last year. I know who owns. I bought the car at the time from the Vice president of the Olds club of America. I also sold it back to him years later. He passed away 2 years ago. His son came from Cali to straighten up after his dads death and sold the car to his Dads best friend.Would you believe 4g ??? Well anyways the guy that owns it now is a millionaire and knew that owned it once. The car is offered to me at a great price but I can't afford it at this time. He knows how much I love the car and for all I know it'll stay put for me at a later date I don't know for sure. The car was a F-85 W-31 Post coupe. It was 1 of 104 W-31's made in 1970. I don't know however how many post coupe F-85's?? The car had no pwr brakes,steering. It had no radio,or even carpet,it was like a hard rubber mat like a truck. It was a 4 speed car. It had a W-27 rearend with a 3.91 gear. It was all original. Even had a bid Dr.Olds sticker on the glove box door. It had about 90,000 on the bottom end of the motor and the heads were fresh but unchanged. I actually did run 2 times out ar the drag strip. Best was with letting some pressure out of the rear tires and spare tire taken out. It ran a 13.22 ET on the second run. Also yes they id get these cars in the 12's with some tinkering with timing and jetting. Amazing car. Rubber in all 4 gears is almost something you just didn't see out of a factory small block.LOL   | ||
| 45_degrees |
Nice! I like the color too. I think Olds muscle cars are under-appreciated compared to the more popular muscle cars of the era. Very, very nice! What elevation were you at when you did the runs? | ||
| Bads1 |
Although that one had more of a bare bones interior to it most Olds had very,very nice interiors for there time. They drove out very smooth in comparison to others. My 68 Olds 442 was a Holiday coupe. Big block 400 turbo 400 tranny auto on the column. Loaded power everything including trunk. The only thing that was a content problem was the cruise control. If you remember the can like deal that was under the hood that vacuum lines went to. Leaked and I couldn't find a replacement. Man I miss those cars,they were just incredible | ||
| Strato9r |
Best car I've ever owned was a 72 442, 350, with a 4 speed and a 3.42 Posi. If we all had a place to keep the things we wished we still had..... 45, your Toro photo is stunning; I love those cars. Spot on with the Olds tech details, too. There were, however forged steel crankshafts installed in 455 engines. Most commonly, they are found in industrial versions of the engine, such as those used in heavy duty irrigation pumps. I also can vouch for at least two examples I've Magnafluxed and ground that came out of 1970 Toronados. There's a local guy that is a total Olds freak, and he's had me offset grind the stroke on these really nice forgings from 4.250 to 4.562, using aftermarket big block Chev rods, 7.100" long. He runs a business building mostly Olds powered irrigation pump units, so he's had hundreds of engine cores to pick from. But, they are rare, and of the thousands of cranks I've ground in the last 28 years, I have not seen more than a dozen Steel 455's. And one Steel 500 Caddy, and they aren't supposed to exist at all. | ||
| 45_degrees |
Thanks for the compliment on my Toro, Strato. Interesting info on the cranks too. What I find so amazing are the Olds V8s built up as racing marine engines... like 394s, 425s and 455s running up to 10,000+ rpm! Especially amazing with the undersquare 455 and it's 4.25" stroke! And they say pushrod engines can't rev very high. Those '72 442s with the optional 350 are probably pretty rare I would guess. The Olds 350 is a pretty damn good engine. The 330 was nice too... I think all of the 330s had steel cranks too. | ||
| Strato9r |
My God, they had some fine engineering going on at Oldsmobile. In the late 60's and early 70's they had some wild prototypes in the skunkworks of some pretty sophisticated, multi-valve cylinder heads bolted onto blocks made of of a variety of materials. The point you make about pushrod engines and rpm potential is a darn good one, 45. Even with the REALLY long pushrods in an Olds, the valvetrain is light and strong, even in stock form. As for the long strokes, and rev potential, as long as piston speeds can be kept within survivable limits, using lighter pieces, and proper rod/stroke ratios, hey, surprizingly zippy RPM levels can be obtained. The fellow I mentioned who has me do his crank work never ceases to amaze me with the stroker Olds engines he builds; these things SHOULD be done by 6500 RPM, but they are still scaring the hell out of any one in his dyno cell, or around his plain Jane Cutlass, at nearly eight grand. And those freakin main bearings are HUGE! I dont even want to know what kind of surface speeds those things are seeing..... My 72 was as plain as a 442 ever was; Covert Metallic paint with matching color 14x7 rims, dog dish hubcaps, no fancy hood, any plainer and it would have been a Dodge!! {BTW, if you have the issue, check out the Cycle World review of the new S+S 3-Cam engine. They have gone to a Wedge type combustion chamber, which allows the use of a much shorter, stiffer rocker arm; LS-1 Chev style. This along with many other cool, automotive style refinements really opens up the door for some impressive performance potential. New Hemis have pushrods, and Corvettes still do too. We havn't seen the last of them yet!} | ||
| 45_degrees |
Agreed!! I've read about Oldsmobile's R&D and they did have some awesome engines in the works. Cam in block is the way to go! The LS-7 427 is also a wicked engine. I think GM should just forget about the Northstar and kill it off and use only LS series V8s. The Northstar V8 is heavier, much bigger despite the smaller displacement, mechanically noisier, less reliable because of the complexity, more expensive to build and doesn't even rev as high (the LS-7 427 has a 7000 rpm redline). More expensive to increase performance too. If my engine ever dies in my '96 Aurora, I am going to install an LS-4 from a Grand Prix GXP into it instead. I'll have to check out that article. Sounds cool. I've always thought it would be cool to see the Thunderstorm be refined and evolved even more with some LS series kind of tech... in particular the LS-7. Your 442 sounds like a cool sleeper. I've got some plans for my Toro and I've already got a set of "C" heads from my '69 Toro that I sent off to Joe Mondello a few years ago to have some work. I've also got a new Comp cam to match the flow of my new heads. They are waiting to be installed. Thats the reason for the plain "Police Package" look on my Toro with the black wheels. My wheels are actually the chrome ones, but I painted them gloss black. I'm still sad that GM killed off Oldsmobile and they never made a decent Toronado after the first generation.  If they were still around they could get a version of the GTO for the new Cutlass... They could've called it the "662"... for 6.0 liter, 6-speed, and dual exhaust! My personal opinion about the Toro is that it should have evolved into an "F" body (Firebird, Camaro) for Oldsmobile in the second gen, and the 98 should have taken over as the front-wheel-drive flagship. Have you noticed how the second generation Firebirds have a very Toronado-esque look to them? They look like the '68-'69 Toro in front and the '66-'67 Toro in the back. I think it was intentional. I've actually thought about finding a plain '70-'73 Firebird and turning it into an interpretation of what the Toronado could have been. Edit- I forgot to mention the Northstar doesn't really have a fuel economy benefit over the LS V8s either! All the advantages you get with a pushrod engine and the icing on the cake is the superior torque provided by the extra displacement. (Message edited by 45 degrees on February 19, 2007) | ||
| Strato9r |
Northstar; pretty much as much as you'll get, is how they come. Too many pieces, too many machining operations in construction, not a bad engine, just an engine. I'm still not sold on the Ford modular engines, for the same reason, and, that their external dimensions are nearly the same as an FE series engine! I appreciate your musings on what coulda been for Oldsmobile; It's kinda sad when a long respected marque goes down. I had uncles and cousins that worked for Studebaker in South Bend....BTW, I had a chance to chat with C.J. Batten a few years back, and in spite of the fact that he was selling one of the wildest cylinder heads available, he was quite adamant about the performance potential of the "C" casting cylinder head. Like the Chrysler B/RB cylinder head, it has a very well balanced intake/exhaust flow, has excellent velocity rates for the range of power available from a factory bottom end, and, is a relatively lightweight casting. When our shop builds an engine using these cylinder heads, we dont even get into any porting until we're getting close to the 470 HP mark. A little work around the valve guides, a smooth transition from bowl to seat, no abrupt turns on the short side radius, and that's all they need. Plus, collectors like it when things like ports havn't been messed with. That Firebird/Toronado idea is a neat one. One of the things that I liked about the early Toros was that there was a sense of unity in the flow of the body lines that made the car seem smaller than it actually is. That was definitely lost as time passed, and to re- define that elegance of a true "Personal Luxury Car", on a Firebird; there is a plan. On that note, from what I've been told by one of my Cadillac customers, there was a slate grey 70 Monte Carlo that was owned by Cadillac Motor Division running around Detroit back in the day, with a pretty serious 500 incher under the hood. If it's true, it would be a trick ride; I've got a 526 inch Caddy out in my garage waiting for a sinister little home......... | ||
| 45_degrees |
Yeah... Mondello likes the C heads too and they didn't have to do too much work to them. I had them fill the heat riser passages while they were at it. I'm shooting for around 450-500 hp. If I supercharge it... ~750 hp. Mondello helped Edelbrock design their Oldsmobile aluminum heads that came out a few years ago and they were roughly based on the C heads. Man, I wish I had the resources to build that Toronado "F" body! Maybe someday! Your comment on the size of the Toronado... how it looks smaller than it actually is, is an interesting point and I've always noticed that. Toros do look relatively small compared to other full-size cars. They're a bit shorter than an Impala and they sit quite a bit lower too. However, their hoods are quite a bit longer than an Impala. They have that short deck/long hood look like the 2nd gen Firebird. Even sitting next to a Cutlass they're not much bigger. Just a bit longer is all. They do sit lower than a Cutlass. My cousin owns an '81 Trans Am, and the Toro looks about the same size, except it's longer and has more interior space. Sits about the same height too. I parked my Toro next to my dad's 2004 Audi A8, which is a full-size car, with it's 122" wheelbase compared to the Toro's 119". The Olds is just a bit longer, but the Audi looks really big next to it. Makes the Toro look like a Firebird sitting next to a '70s full-size four door sedan (not saying the Audi is unattractive though) What is really funny I think is parked next to a modern Civic or other "compact" car, it stills looks smaller. The roof is so low and the rear end is so low that the Civic looks like some sort of land barge compared. I think most modern cars are getting really big. The Camry looks gigantic!! They're not getting big in a good way, as most have really tall roofs and huge rear-ends! Remember the old GM design studio phrase... "lower, longer, wider"? I love that! That 526 Caddy needs a home! The '67-'68 Eldorado would be a good home... especially one all dressed in black! | ||
| Firemanjim |
Ah,old school Oldsmobiles--I am a Cutlass man myself. Had 2 64's and 2 65's. My first 64 started out as a 4 speed 330 and I kept it for 15 years. Along the way it became a 400ci bracket racer,first with a B&M rockcrusher 4 speed Muncie M-22,4.88 12 bolt posi,Holley 850 on a tunnelram,welded the center exhaust port,roller rockers,etc.Ran high 13's Then went to a B&M turbo 400 wish I kept it,but kids got in way.Had a 65 with 425ci and a daily driver 65 with 330 auto,A/C,discs brakes from later Chevelle.Love to find a 1964/65 convert.My buddy found a 1964 442--we had no idea how rare that was at the time. | ||
| Strato9r |
Man, that Eldorado, 67-68, has got to be the most evilest looking Caddy of 'em all! One of those in noir, but with a twist similar to Jay Leno's Toro [gasp!]. Actually, it can be done, even if your budget isn't Jay-sized. The trick is to use a 67-70 Riviera frame, though I've heard of it done with other GM fullsize frames as well. If I was actually going to do that project, though, I'd have it as a front driver; it's what they are. The 526 was actually built for a 68 Eldo that I had lined up; and then the deal fell through. Oh, well.........Hey, I guess maybe I shouln't have said anything about bearing speed on that Olds stroker mentioned above. They sent the crank over this morning; it had an oiling problem on the dyno, and it took out the main bearings. Very little damage to the crank, luckily. I'm just going to grind the mains to the next undersize. I'm trying to talk him into modifying a set of half-groove bearings to 3/4 groove; he was using a full groove set, which is fine until bearing loads exceed the two, 5/16" wide bearing faces that a full groove bearing effectively is. And, at the time of the failure, it was making....get this...702 lb/ft of torque at 5100 RPM! This is a fresh motor, based on a 45 degree 425 block, bored .125" over {some of those things sonic check @ 7/16" cylinder wall thickness. 455 blocks, not so much.] They were trying out a new "torque" cam. Apparently, it works. Just a set of Edelbrock heads on it, with minor porting. They're sending over a 425 crank next week for a really sweet mod. Using 292 Chev 6 rods, which are actually decent pieces, I'll offset the stroke to 4 3/8", leaving a 2.1", SBC sized journal. That may seem a little spindly for such a long stroke, but the 425 is a really tough, NON-TWISTED forging. [ the 455 forging is twisted ]. I realize that we've taken this thread miles from anything Buell related; blabbing about undersquare, pushrod engines based on elegant, but antiquated architecture, powering distinctive, forward thinking vehicles................God, we're so self indulgent................................ | ||
| Strato9r |
Hey, 'Jim, was that 400 one of those 68-69 ones with the really small {3 7/8"] bore, or an early one? | ||
| 45_degrees |
Strato your job sounds fun!! I like this thread. Buell fans discussing their other interests! And the engine tech can kind of relate to our bikes The '67-'68 Eldo is my favorite Cadillac. I know about using the Riviera frame to make a rear-driver for the E body front-drivers. The '66 Rivi works too. The '66 had the old Buick 425 nailhead, and in '67 the new Buick 430 came out, but the car was basically the same. I was actually going to convert my '69 Toro into a centrifuge-supercharged and rear-drive monster of a sleeper... years before Jay did his '66! It was to give no clues as to it's modifications, just like Jay's. I have a '68 donor Rivi with 3.42:1 limited slip for the chassis, and I was going to use a Borg-Warner Super T-10 4-speed. I got in the middle of the project and there it sits. I don't have the time to finish two projects, so I am putting all of my extra time toward the '66. When I saw Jay's I thought he must have used some sort of brain scanner on me, because if I did have the resources, mine would be very similar to his. His should have been AWD though, because of the traction problem. I actually think maybe an Impala chassis might work better for the Toro, because it's a conventional ladder frame with wide rails instead of the Rivi's X-frame. The Impala is also 119", just like the Toro and Rivi. The Eldo has a 120" or 121" wb if I remember right. To me, the Toronado's body design is just as important as the drivetrain... maybe more. They put so much into the design, separate from the engineering that it almost doesn't matter it was front-drive. That's why I've always thought it was alright that Jay's is rear-drive. All said, it was some damn fine engineering that went into the drive-train. Just awesome! Fireman... another Olds fan! Cool. Welcome! | ||
| 45_degrees |
Oh... they were using '63 and '64 Riviera's as disquised front-drive test-mules, running around the country... I've got a picture of one somewhere and it looks funny, because they stretched out the hood to make them. People were noticing the odd look of them and knew something was up. They had full-size clay models of nearly finalized Toronado body design in 1963. It's shape was so far ahead of it's time that more than 40 years later, auto companys are putting similar fender bulges on everything. Most of the time it doesn't work like it did on the Toro. | ||
| Strato9r |
If anyone could afford a brain scanner, It would be Jay Leno. I think that I saw it parked between his Vincent Black Shadow and his Brough Superior...................yeah, I love my job[s]. I'm so easily bored, I'd have been locked up years ago if I didn't!!! | ||
| Firemanjim |
Cannot remember--too far back in the dim mists of time,bought car in 1972 and sold it in 1986/7. | ||
| Bcordb3 |
My neighbor bought, I think it was a 68 or 69, 442 at the Barrett-Jackson auction for about $30,000 in January, and it was a driver, rare cars bring big money in some markets. The lot number was 335, the results of all sales are the Barrett-Jackson website. 335 1968 OLDSMOBILE HOLIDAY 442 SPORT COUPE $27500.00 (Message edited by BCordb3 on February 24, 2007) | ||
| Cereal |
I rebuilt a 68 Cutlass Convertible when I was in high school. It wasn't worth much because the previous owner had put a different engine and interior in it, but sweet car none the less. Sorry, no pics. It was before the days of digital cameras and my box of pictures was lost many moves ago. | ||
| Firemanjim |
Found an old pic from Fremont Raceway, we were doing a tune/test day.My brother cheering with beer in background.  | ||
| Firemanjim |
Having trouble getting pic posted from my scan.It says its a jpeg but I get a error message saying not the right format?? try again.  | ||
| Strato9r |
YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEHHAAAWWWWWWW!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It must have scanned in, 'Jim, I can SMELL the rubber!!!! | ||
| 45_degrees |
Supercharged twin 425 Rockets. (one in front and back), 1000 hp each.  |
