| Author | Message | ||
     Spatten1 |
Ted, It's not Buell, so it sucks. Don't you get it? | ||
| Skully |
It's not Buell, so it sucks. Don't you get it? Point made. However, the converse is not necessarily true either. | ||
| Swordsman |
Here's the "bashing". "Now Harley suffers from an abundance of riches. Continuous adulation and reverential praise; it is the death knell of enlightened design. This has denutted the company as a creative force. These former rebels are truly the establishment they used to stand against." ....... "What of the design result? What began in the early 20th century as a reasonable exercise in Art Deco (not real American design in the opinion of your Confederate team) with world class competitive power and handling, is now reduced to a design retrospective predicated upon an embellished past." However, if you read the whole thing, Confederate is really just disappointed in H-D. The owner was a huge fan, but felt like H-D really sold out (which I tend to agree with). And when he mentions the H-D "clone creators", isn't he bashing all the Japanese wannabes for ripping off their looks? That's what I get out of it. ~SM (Message edited by Swordsman on February 07, 2007) | ||
| Freezerburn |
Looks like David "denutted" himself and threw his bells in a sling on the Confederate logo. | ||
| Liquorwhere |
Well...interestingly enough is the shared sentiment I have seen and heard from custom bike builders, from Sheldon Coleman at Big Dog to Alan at Santiago and many websites of custom builders, many were inspired by and in fact grew up on HD's, but now find that most designs are just a recycled retro theme to market to an ever aging target market of baby boomers and "rub's" (rich urban bikers) so the custom guys decided to make a bike that has no affiliation with harley, retro in the theme (choppers) yet with modern styling and components and they found they could over charge for their bikes as well...at least for a little while they could...I think the fad has come to an end and the prices are definitely dropping especially in the used market....i believe the future "retro" theme will be a mish mash of modern sport bikes and retro cafe racers emulating the styling to a point of the old brit bikes (like the 59) parked in front of Aces with some very modern powerplants and styling..2 pennies in.. | ||
| Blake |
Dale, Leave it to the "custom bike builders", folks who make their living doing things differently, to provide an objective appraisal of Harley-Davidson?  Steve (SPatten), If that were the Buell logo, it would be just as queer and I'd not hold back saying so. If you have the January issue of CW you can find interesting impressions of the Hellcat by John Burns and Don Canet. A $69K bike, it ran and handled horribly, suffered a starter failure, repeated missing and fouling of the spark plugs, and ultimately a catastrophic engine failure. But hey, it's not a Buell, right, so we cannot comment upon it as we see fit?  | ||
| Spatten1 |
Blake- the Buell bias is that you will cite CW when it bashes the Hellcat, but ignore the CW article that bashes the HD engine as using outdated engineering. | ||
| Liquorbox |
"the Buell bias is that you will cite CW when it bashes the Hellcat, but ignore the CW article that bashes the HD engine as using outdated engineering." EXACTLY! Like I said, I won't part with my Lightening, but let's at least call a spade, a spade! | ||
| Spatten1 |
I thought the Hellcat article was hillarious, and the curmudgeon Burns was at his best. It is so true the way you can get sucked into wanting to ride a cruiser because they look so cool, then reality sets in when you ride it and your realize it is a total POS. That happened to me with a Big Dog a couple of years ago. I don't understand how anyone cannot give some serious credence to the article written by Kevin Cameron, the most widely repected technical journalist in the industry. His point is that S&S, a staple in the V-Twin world, has hired progressive engineers that are addressing numerous outdated design aspects of HD engines. Why is that so offensive? Personally, I haven't seen any evidence of stellar engineering at HD. The V-Rod was the only clean sheet design in years, and it is heavy, big, and underpowered compared to other manufacturers. I'm glad S&S is working to improve the product while keeping the important aspects of the heritage. Buells have great chassis, and I think the Buell engineers do a wondeful job. I also like the engine in my XB. However, I don't think the engine is beyond reproach by any standards. There are certainly plenty of improvements that could be made. | ||
| Blake |
I hadn't read Kevin Cameron's article. I will. Can't believe I missed it. I'm a bif fan of Kevin. Don't know what you are talking about wrt to an article that "bashes the H-D engine as 'using outdated engineering'." Same article? | ||
| Spatten1 |
Yes, same article, on the X-Wedge engine. I'll temper my words, sorry if I was confrontational. It doesn't really bash HD, but it is entirely about how S&S is addressing limitations on HD, and the current S&S HD clone engines. He does make a point about the bearings being outdated, and as usual his description is very good and thorough. Essentially, as the engines have gotten so much larger and more powerful in recent years, they have found redesign to be more important. Cool that you like Cameron too. He is the reason that I subscribe to CW. | ||
| 45_degrees |
You could call a Lightening a Lightning too. The Hellcat engine suffered major failures. Did the Buell engine fail or were they just being biased because they can't find any problems with it other than certain organic servo interaction malfunctions that get addressed as the design continues to be refined... take for instance the transmission. | ||
| Liquorwhere |
Blake, I don't have any real love for custom bike builders...they all look the same to me...too long to have any fun on, but you can look good going slow or fast for a short period in a straight line..I always seem to see people on those bikes in flip flops, wife beater shirts and shorts with gold dripping off them..to each his own i guess...I like my buell and in fact will soon be post the pics of the X1 being torn down and rebuilt...just pointing out that many of those guys seem to emulate HD and curse HD at the same time, to be honest, I have three Harleys and Two Buells and I love them and hate them at the same time, mostly because I love the bikes and dislike HD but like the way Buell COULD be, the way it wants to be, HD for Buell is kinda like AMF for Harley, Buell needed the money to keep going, but the HD bureaucracy is kinda holding Buell back..IMHO..and it is just an opinion. Alright...get you torches out boys I feel a "Rocketman" style flaming coming on..hehe I have not seen Rocket comment in this thread yet has he??? | ||
| Strato9r |
I have to agree, Kevin Cameron is one of the reasons I read CW,[along with American Flyers], and the article on the X- wedge was a good one. It has me wondering, though, if there might be some sort of skunk-works type connection with H-D on the project; it wouldnt be the first time that S+S has had a hand in powertrain development for Harley-Davidson. Wasn't the 80 inch Shovelhead an S+S project?}} | ||
| Bumblebee |
These people don't ride motorcycles, they ride magazines. A test on a motorcycle is one man's impression about a day (or two) riding a test bike. Then they take it to the track and get trap times, run it on a dynometer and take a bunch of photos, send it off to the art department to lay it out real neat and go to press with it. My observations: If it's different they don't like it. The Buell thankfully is different. Top speed and quarter mile times are everything. If it's not the fastest and quickest it's nothing. Never mind all the Asian liter+ sport bikes handle like a freight train. It's like quantifying a digital camera by how many mega-pixels it has. It’s not the entire story. | ||
| Jiffy |
I agree with your post Bumblebee, except for the handle like a freight train. Ride a Busa or GSXR1000 lately. They handle quite well when setup for the rider correctly. The torque is there too. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Anytime people on this board write that Japanese sportbikes don't handle well it tells me that they have never ridden one. | ||
| Liquorbox |
If ANY "experienced" rider were to take a new GSXR 1000 out, I seriously doubt there would be any animosity for Jap bikes. In less of course, that person were a complete fool. | ||
| Imonabuss |
I've ridden the GSXR-1000 in many guises, including the latest, and the latest one has an excellent chassis. However, I did not like the engine characteristics or suspension, and know I am faster on twisty roads on my Citycross. So, it's a good bike, but I like my Buell better. Now that's just me, and I only used to be fast. | ||
| Liquorbox |
"Anytime people on this board write that Japanese sportbikes don't handle well it tells me that they have never ridden one." Anytime anyone tells me they are faster on their Buell, than on a GSXR 1000, it tells me they have never used a stopwatch! | ||
| Imonabuss |
I don't need a stopwatch, the difference is big enough to measure with a wristwatch! But again, that's just me, and I wouldn't want to pretend to know what other's experiences might be like. | ||
| Liquorbox |
OK, here's the Spec's: Suzuki, 366 LB. dry, 158 HP, 77 Ft. Lb torque. Buell XB12R, 395 Lb. dry, 75 HP, 71 Ft. Lbs. Heavier, handling's greatest enemy, less HP & less torque! I guess some Buells are just magic? And here's the chart from D & D for those who will doubt:  | ||
| Xl1200r |
Liquor, not to point out the obvious, but the "75hp" is not the peak number. Look at the graph - the Buell is clearly touching on 97-98hp stock. (you also mixed up the TQ and HP lines...) (Message edited by xl1200r on February 10, 2007) | ||
| Spatten1 |
If the Buell is hitting 97-98HP stock, it is a VERY OPTIMISTIC dyno. The dyno's that put the GSXR at 160hp put the XB12 at about 85hp. | ||
| Liquorwhere |
Well spec sheets don't lie, but I read a comment one time that came to mind while reading the last few posts... Valentino Rossi...that guy is so fast, he will beat you on his bike, then swap you and beat you on yours....look the Buell has some disadvantages in HP to many bikes, and I like many others would welcome a new powerplant, I truly would, but to just put up a graph and say this is why your statement is incorrect Harvey, I wasn't with you, nor have I ridden the areas you have but this graph is PROOF you are wrong...well that is BS. I would say that there are many areas were a Buell would have significant advantage over many bikes including the ones you listed here, like say Route 9 from canyon city to hartsell colorado, that is one twisty bitch where you climb quick out of deep corners and the altitude fluctuates a few thousand feet in less than 30 miles, I just don't agree that you can put up a graph to disprove someones on the road experiences. sorry bro, but if Harvery (imonabuss) says he is faster on his Citycross in the corners,then he is, there are more factors that just the two you put forth that are involved. That is the longest run on sentence ever...lol. | ||
| Imonabuss |
Thanks, Lw, a classy post. I would love to see Buell put out a more modern engine in a different model, just because I think a lot more people would then buy them, and there would be less complaints to have to listen to about Buells! I just hope whatever they build doesn't lose the magic of drivability on twisty roads that the XB has. And I hope they keep building XBs, because I don't know that I want a 150HP bike. But if there is a dirt bike, I'll buy one of those! Fun things to think about during a long winter!! | ||
| Rocketman |
Why would 150hp lose drive ability when we talk about Buells? And even if 150hp was too scary for an XB chassis, which it most likely would be, I'm sure Erik is more than capable of designing a suitable tube frame to harness that sort of power. Question is, why wouldn't he? Not, why would he? Rocket | ||
| Liquorbox |
He has! It's called a Ducati 1098! | ||
| Xl1200r |
Rocket - I love how you sneak those tube frame ideas right in there. There's no doubt what you're looking for  Spatten - I can't comment on the dynos as I have only seen a handful of them. But all the ones I see are putting XB12's at around 100hp stock INCLUDING the one from AL at American Sport Bike. I'm not arguing that an XB put out more than a Gixxerm or is faster in a straight line, just pointing out that 100hp runs aren't uncommon for 12's. | ||
| Liquorwhere |
I agree with Rocket, there is no need to eliminate all the lines of bikes, were a new tube frame available with wicked hp and torque I would be all over it and we could still have the multiple lines with the lump for those that want it and the beast for those who want that...and as much as I love that 1098, I would buy a Buell first if there were something equivalent.. |
