| Author | Message | ||
     Tpoppa |
http://news.motorcycle.com/article.motml?sid=4580 "Dear Harley-Davidson, You have lots of money given to you by legitimate chrome-lovers from one end of the union to the other and now you're even selling the shiny things in other places where people wear different hats and don't talk the same. Raking in profits hand over fist, you've left Eric (Buell) only a little pushrod V-Twin from the 1950s with which to power his otherwise balanced, high performance, sport-oriented and very modern bikes. I'd bet consensus is that HOG should re-invest a meagre sliver of those profits into hiring some top-of-the-line engineers for Eric, and maybe a slender slice for a little foundry to make some modern engines that rev and go. Please let America have an actual sports bike brand of its own, you know you want it, you know they're capable of it, you know if you build it they'll buy it. Especially since they won't have to continually forgive it. Faithfully, People who actually ride. Is this just asking for trouble?" | ||
| Naustin |
Well its obvious that the "people who actually ride" have never "actually ridden" a buell.  | ||
| Tunes |
More misguided, uninformed people offering opinions people don't want or need to hear. | ||
| Buelltroll |
Are you guys high this early in the day or what? You're saying you WOULDN'T want a better engine with more power thats NOT based on 60 yr old technology? (Message edited by buelltroll on January 26, 2007) | ||
| Swordsman |
Sheesh, I'm so tired of hearing this. I'm not defending the engine, I'm just tired of hearing the complaints. Why do people make such a big deal out of the numbers game? So what if another bike has freakin' 400hp and turns 500,000 rpms? Would you EVER be able to use it without going to jail or killing yourself? Very unlikely, unless you're on a track. And the XB's weren't built for track racing... that's been stated over and over and over by the Man himself. That's like buying a new compact car and griping about the towing capacity. Just makes no sense! If ya' don't like the bike, buy something else. That simple. I like mine pretty well as is (not championing it, I'm just sayin!).  BTW, not directing this at you Tpoppa, just the author and his ilk.  That said, I DO feel like Buell tend to get the shaft on things. Not that I really know anything about it. Just a feeling. Maybe it's from all the dealer nonsense. Buelltroll, Aside from the 45' V-twin arrangement, I don't understand how you can honestly compare the old engines against the new? ~SM (Message edited by Swordsman on January 26, 2007) | ||
| Tunes |
I want an innovative motorcycle that handles with a 45 degree, V-twin engine that stomps... and that's what I bought. It's called a Buell. If I wanted 200hp+ and all that crap, I would have bought that brand/model. Just trying to keep it simple. | ||
| Blake |
If the current Buell engine is based on 60 year old technology, then so are all other current motorcycle engines. Let's think about what technology, systems/subsystems, parts, and materials, the current Buell engine utilizes that was not available on any commercially produced street motorcycle in 1950. Anyone? It's a very long list. (Message edited by blake on January 26, 2007) | ||
| Blake |
Actually, it would be much easier, a much much shorter list, to name the stuff that the current engine shares with its 50 year old ancestor. | ||
| Aldaytona |
I like the Harley-Davidson V-Twin motors, reliable and user friendly, and having that in a premium handling package makes me a happy lad. If I wanted a Yamakawasuzuduc, with a gazillion horsepower, I would have bought one. Can I have an Amen brothers? | ||
| Daves |
it's 45 degrees, pushrods, 2 valve heads, 4 cams, chain primary drive, it burns gas, oil is it's lube, 2 spark plugs That's all I got | ||
| Swordsman |
Blake, funny I almost said the same thing, but decided to let it lie. Just for shiznits and giggles, here's one of the replies I thought was humorous from the above link. "The power band on the engine is worse than a 600 supersport. By only being good from 3k to 6k RPM or so, you have a very narrow revv range to work in, effectively identical to the "Lightswitch" 600s with their 6k to 12k powerband. Compare with an SV650 which is a better street ride engine, where the engine works from 3k to 10k without complaint, and produces only 10hp less than the 1L buells. With the Buell, its more gear shifts and no more power. Ride a Tuono and a Buell back to back (I have on demo rides), the difference is like day and night. A Buell with a 800cc-1L twin would totally ROCK (I'd actually say go for an 800cc, the less rotating mass would REALLY make it a corner carver)" I love that bit about the Buell's narrow torque range... apparently he didn't notice the low red line, and the fact that if you twist the throttle AT ALL, it's whizzing at 2500+. ~SM (Message edited by Swordsman on January 26, 2007) | ||
| Tbowdre |
unfortunately life is full of nonsense such as status symbols, and life always a bit of a competition. The Buell has a tough time at face value standing up to the big four's power numbers and the status of the itallians. I love the current line of bikes buell offers. but it sure would be nice if they built a more powerful, higher reving, titanium, faster stopping, carbon fiber, slipper clutch, insane lean angle, blah blah blah. big status symbol for the masses. Would i buy it? probably not, who needs 160hp and a bad back? Racers. Anyway, it would be cool to own its little brother. my xb12r COME ON build it!!! we know the usa can do it! | ||
| Sandman865 |
I think they are going to have something new and bigger this week. They will unveil it a the dealer show this week. I'm excited. but I also think the 9 should not go. The 9 is super smooth and perfect throttle response. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
 Seriously. | ||
| 45_degrees |
More like an arrogant idiotic letter than an interesting letter. We don’t need a completely redesigned engine. People like this gut that wrote the letter don’t have a clue. They mention the bikes they’d like Buell to emulate... but aren't they content to own the competition? Their logic is completely absent. Buell should keep the same basic 45 degree engine, otherwise it’s not the same bike or experience. The way to get a lot more power from this design: Take a page from General Motors and follow the LS-7 engine program. Titanium connecting rods, pushrods, rocker arms, valve springs and intake valves would allow greater RPM. Nitrided piston rings would enable lower ring tension resulting in more power due to reduced friction. Another technology being used in the automotive industry that is certain to be introduced on a motorcycle eventually is direct-injection of the fuel. Among other benefits, direct-injection would allow a significantly higher compression ratio. More displacement never hurts and always has the advantage of the real and actually measurable power an engine produces... TORQUE. Horsepower is an arbitrary figure that cannot be calculated without torque. This engine could rip your arms off. They could probably even lighten up the engine block and casing a bit. It is idiotic to say an engine is old technology when every single internal-combustion engine available today is basically old-technology. Overhead cams are old tech, water-cooling is old-tech, high-revving is nothing new, nor is it needed in all applications. The only really new engine that has come along within the last century is already around 50 years old... the Wankel rotary engine... it can rev pretty high, but it doesn’t make a lot of torque. People that think this V-twin engine is antiquated don’t really understand the whole picture and cannot appreciate the art of mechanical design in my opinion. I love these engines and I think they will continue to be refined to produce more power. Btw- The Aprilia engine sucks IMO, because it is impossible to ride that engine below 3000 rpm. The very main reason I bought Buell (this is my second one) is because of the engine. (Message edited by 45 degrees on January 26, 2007) | ||
| Xl1200r |
Can I have an Amen brothers? Amen! Engines have utilized OHC arrangements for the better part of 100 years, so I don't see how that's new technology. Same goes for water-cooling and whatever else. Take away some the better materials used for longevity, and you basically get down to the root of it. The core of an internal combustion engine really hasn't changed all that much in over a century. Different engines get different dimensions. So if my engine is based on 60-year-old technology, I guess I'm ahead of the game. In all seriousness, the XB (and all other Buell) engines was designed to one thing VERY well, and they don't fail at this. Numbers are for 16-year-old boys and people who don't appreciate the finer parts of riding. Any idiot can twist the wick and go 531mph in 2.56 seconds given enough horsepower. I forget where the quote comes from, but "I'd rather ride a slow motorcycle fast than a fast motorcycle slow." Don't get me wrong, those speed blasts are a good time, and I woudln't argue with a higher output mill, but I'll take going 60mph through a few sweepers over 160mph in a straight line any day. If you feel that limited by your machine, then go big-bore, do the heads up, get a good set of cams - but please stop tearing down what is arguably a GREAT engine. | ||
| Jlnance |
You're saying you WOULDN'T want a better engine with more power thats NOT based on 60 yr old technology? Of course not. I want a better everything. It does get tiresome to hear people blast the engine because it's based on something from the 50's. It implies that HD hasn't improved it since then, which certainly isn't true. It also implies that starting over from scratch is better than improving something that already exists. That can be true, but it is far from a certain thing. | ||
| Greenlantern |
If Buell were to build this Uberbike the so called masses clamor for It would satisfy them for all of 6 months until once again the cries for revolution would be on there lips. Being one of the Apple faithful I have watched these "If only THEY would" geniuses tell me the consumer and the company where I purchased the product in question why we are wrong to be satisfied with what we have when "If only they would use cutting edge ( insert fad gadget of the moment here), they would have a killer product and the respect of the industry, 67% market share ect. ect.. Well Apple is not stupid nor do i suspect is Harley/Buell either. They sell a good product now and they know it. The fact that this board is here for me to soapbox on demonstrates the love and devotion the people who have purchased there products have.They also know as a successful enterprise that they cannot rest on their laurels and that time will move on. Is there a revolutionary bike in their Skunk Works? I wouldn't bet against it. Will It be sooner than later. Again I would not take that action.bottom line is Harley knows how to sell motorcycles and though Buell is it's own company do not think for a moment that they are not taking notes from Harley's R&D/ marketing models. they would be foolhardy not to and my friends I have yet to see foolhardy and Erik Buell in the same sentence (well uh except for this one). oh yeah I ride my Lightning quicker,faster and with more confidence then I ever rode any of my "cutting edge" bikes! Whew! I'm done.  | ||
| Olinxb12r |
No matter what the situation you can not make all of the people happy all of the time. Would I like to have a 6th gear, 185 HP, 140 ft lbs of torque, the same dimensions, weight and sound? Sure, of course I would. Is that an reasonable goal that will not make Buells to expensive to afford, modify and do the maintenance on? Of course not! I like my Buell for what it was made for, and at some point I will probably add an R1, GSXR 1K, 1000RR or ZX10R to go with it. The sad part is that I could see myself riding the crap out of the other bike for a couple months and then returning to my Buell after the newness wore off. The other bike would then collect crazy amounts of dust and depreciation until I sold it or decided to make it a track bike. Hell, the XBRR costs over 30K, and it doesn't even really live up to the list that I put up previously. Buell doesn't have the volume of sales necessary to put in that much R&D. If they did make a bike with the current engine and those specs it would probably break down constantly. | ||
| Eboos |
The Marine Corps MEUSOC, the FBI Hostage Rescue Team, and countless others use a modified pistol based on a design that came out prior to it's model designation: the M1911. The B52 bomber, the M2 .50 machine gun, the M16 service rifle and countless other military hardware have plenty more service life left in them through the use of updates, but not a total redesign. | ||
| Reepicheep |
 Real riders? Here at work, I see an inverse relationship between horsepower and miles ridden per year. You don't want to know the number of miles the brand new "track ready" Honda 600 owned by the guy two cubes over from me has gotten in the last two years. I have (literally) used up new tires in less time then he has spent using up a single tank of gas. Ditto the 'busa that lives one building over. There is a VStrom that at least rides frequently... but if you actually look at the dyno plots you will find that he makes only a little more power then I do, and weighs more. But hey, I think all bikes are cool, and I buy the one with sufficient handling, comfort, and handling for the tasks where I expect to use it. So clearly I don't "get" whatever I am supposed to be arguing about. | ||
| Mikethebike72 |
I just had to check. There are 3 HD part numbers on the XBs that are 50+ years old. Both piston pin bushings are from 36 and the primary chain is from 57. But the primary chain has been changed twice since then. There may be some hardware,ie bolts, washers, pins, that may be old, but can't cross reference all that on company time. | ||
| Ducxl |
It's not about top speed.It's efficiency. Whats the most power efficient(least amount of power robbing friction) combination available? So,IF Buell made a world class superbike you guys' would be on the other side riding scooters? You're all in denial.As i've often said,I love my Buells'.But why would i buy another? I WILL buy more bikes',but yet another air cooled 1200cc Buell? I don't think so.Maybe another Ducati,they've ratcheted up a notch in performance.Bang for the buck. Why are there so many threads here addressing HI-Performance mods. to our Buells??? Buell should just ENGINEER the damn thing and be done with it.Or i'll just choose a manufacturer that does.MANY | ||
| Rocketman |
Just because the Buell engine is very desirable to many, is that reason to put all other engines down? If I had a choice I'd have two streetfighters in my garage. My Buell and a Brutale. A Brutale engine will deliver in a way no V twin Harley derived engine ever could, and that for me is an experience not to be missed. It's something you feel low down in your tummy. Rather like going over a hump back bridge at speed and your tummy does that go light butterfly thing, except there's no hump back needed. Just warp speed MV style. Likewise I love the V twin engine characteristics for their own arm pulling feel. Try it Ducati style wide full open whilst shifting up through the gears and it feels like your eye balls are been pushed into your head. All are great sensations. Miss them at your peril. So please don't tell me my Buell is happy with the power it has. I'd like Brutale / S4R / Tuono performance from an S1W style of Buell. Rocket | ||
| Slamber777 |
Performance mods aren't needed, they're just fun. l don't know why l need more power because my stock Ss still spins the rear Dunlop if you whack the throttle in the corners (the wear pattern proves that) and l can't seem to leave a stop w/o a wheelie. This is the most fun l've had on a bike. And l will not apologize for this motor! Period! But, if another one is developed and hits the market, that would be cool. Things change. Let's see what it's got. lt's still our motorcycle company with Erik Buell at the wheel, it's still our bike of choice. l know we will give it an honest look. After all that's what a brotherhood is all about. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Must every bike be a superbike? I like unconventional. I bought Buell BECAUSE of the difference. Product differentiation is the key to survival. If not, why the hell would anyone want a Ural, Triumph, Guz, or for that matter a Buell. Once they homogenize the soul out of the Buell to please the masses (and the masses of magazines) EVERYONE will be bitching because the numbers don't chart as well and not bother to even test ride one. If you want different, buy different. If you want the same, go shop at the motorcycle super stores. They have scores of same. Would you really pass up a GTO driving experience to buy one of a million Honda Accords? | ||
| Thespive |
I wish everyone who has a Buell and hates our engines would shutup and buy something else so they can feel better about their purchase. Freakin'-A, enough already. Frankly, I love the character of our bike and the engines installed in them. I didn't buy a Buell for peak numbers or armchair racing. I bought it because it suits my riding style and because it IS different AND FUN. I bought it because it ISN'T an in-line four and has a low RPM powerband. Get over it already, if the Buell doesn't, there are plenty of other bikes out there that fit YOUR needs, but don't go changing MY bike to make you feel better about your "numbers" to your friends. --Sean | ||
| Ducxl |
}Performance mods aren't needed, they're just fun. Fun??? What?? You spend $10500 for a buell making 103hp bone stock.Then you spend another $5000. to make(hopefully) 125hp. When you could've paid $10000 for a 'ZOOK making 160hp bone stock.What? No SOUL? Then you buy a $15000 Ducati 1098 with 160hp BONE stock,ENGINEERED for 160hp.Without the reliability issues which surely come with "Hi-Po" Buell mods. ECONOMICS-101 tells us it is not a wise decision to "Mod" the Buell for more(much more) power. | ||
| Slamber777 |
You can throw numbers out all you want. But l will guarantee you that HP to $ ratio isn't why thousands of people buy Harleys or even Ducatis. lf that were the case we'd all be riding Japanese bikes. If that's your criteria, Good for you. Let the rest of us decide why we buy what we buy. Enough said. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Most Americans are infatuated with excess capacity. It's why you see 4'8" soccer moms driving 9000lb behemoth all-terrain vehicles, sipping a 44oz slurpee. We love the thought that we could do it if we wanted, we just never do. Excess capacity. Why would I want a 360 Modena that I can't get into 6th gear without breaking the century mark on the interstate? Excess capacity. Why would my wife and I need a 42,000 square foot house? Excess capacity. I, and many, would be unable to fully use 160hp on the road. That is why I bought a bike that meets what I could use, that had capacity equal to my needs. NO EXCESS CAPACITY. If you want a bike with excess capacity that will do 200mph, great. There are several. But to deem that all bikes for street use must have 160hp in order to be acceptable is silly. I will buy what meets my needs. Most others will as well. Otherwise there would be only two flavors of bike: Street only repli-racers Dirt only motocross Neither does what I want to do. I'm glad that you can have the bike YOU WANT. I'd be pissed if I couldn't have the bike I WANT. (Message edited by ft_bstrd on January 26, 2007) |
